No Shame In Listening

Welcome to No Shame in the Home Game, the podcast that

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caress how your home feels.

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Not Looks.

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I am Lacey the host who's ready

to listen to her co-host . quite

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work I want to, but that's okay.

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We're gonna be following up from

our episode where we talked to

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Deb Porter about listening, but as

usual, I'm gonna turn it over to

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our co-host

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who has her life together in my mind.

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And that's Sarah.

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Hello,

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Sarah

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Hi Lacey.

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And I'm so sorry to burst your bubble.

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I don't would never say

I have my life together.

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When you said that line about,

it's about how our home feels, not

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looks, I was like, that's good.

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'cause my house does not look.

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A maze.

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Balls right now but I feel good.

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It's like what Sarah

said from her episode.

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If you looked at the state of my

house, you think our mental health

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was not great, but it's the inverse.

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I was like, yeah, that's kind of

what I'm going through at the moment.

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Track 1: I mean, I would say my house

still reflects how I feel, which is a

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little chaotic, but we're making progress.

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This is my first time recording in

the new house, so when we recorded

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the episode with Deb, we were

just about to move and now we have

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officially moved into the new house.

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And it's a lot, but it's good.

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It's great.

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It's a really great house.

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There are so many things that

we're like, oh, this is nice.

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I know I already said this to Sarah,

but did you know that there are closets

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where you can actually see your clothes?

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Did you know that?

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Oh, just so exciting to

actually see my clothes.

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You are like me when I finally

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got a dishwasher one time when we

moved and I was like, oh my gosh.

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To not have to hand wash

every single thing you used.

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Did you know this was an option?

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Track 1: Or like we right now, our, our

kitchen has a sliding door right out

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into the backyard and there's a really

big patio and it goes out into the yard.

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And so there's no steps.

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There's no like Jack Tory

about kids getting splinters.

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and it's all fenced in so

we can just open the door

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and be like, run amok and

still see where they are

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and be there for them.

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And they run in and out.

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and it's really nice.

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Now do our neighbors behind us like it.

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Probably not 'cause they are running

amok, having tantrums outside.

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But you know, they're

in bed by eight or nine.

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So it's not like we're

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doing

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it late.

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as long, yeah, as long as you adhere

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to the sound policy of your city.

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Like I had a, I have a friend,

she has four girls, they had two,

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and then they had surprise twins,

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and

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Track 1: that's my nightmare.

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it was.

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It was a lot.

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And they actually had a big backyard.

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They cemented, they poured cement on

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half of it so that they could go

out and ride their tricycles and

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bicycles and not be in the street.

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'cause this way she could

look out the window and

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see them.

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And at first I was like, that's crazy.

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You're pouring.

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And then I was like, oh, it's genius.

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Track 1: That's less so you have to

mow, oh, we have more land to mow now.

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I told Joe if he gets mailed

riding lawnmower, I could do it.

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To which he was like, at that point we

should just get one of those robot ones.

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And I was like, good point.

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, which I did Google and are more

cost effective than you would think.

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but like you have to do other work of

putting out like lines to show it to

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where to stay and . Too much work besides

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Wouldn't that be so funny?

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I just pictured this like little mowing

robot, like going freedom and he just

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is like running down your street and

your neighbor's what is happening?

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Went I with a little

tiny cowboy hat on top,

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Track 1: now if I ever do get a well,

'cause we have a, we have, we're

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actually gonna get a second robot vacuum.

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We have one.

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and he does his best, but

there's just way more to do here.

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and so we were gonna bring him

upstairs and get another one

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downstairs 'cause there's carpet.

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Our old house didn't have

carpet, that kinda stuff.

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and I told Joe, I'm like,

I'm a little worried.

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If it's similar technology

to give it blades.

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, like I roll my vacuum, like he gets

stuck really easily and he gets

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confused and he is doing his best, but

I wouldn't hand him knives, you know,

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oh, I just came up with the perfect

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solution.

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Track 1: okay.

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A remote control one.

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Track 1: thought about that.

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I'm surprised that doesn't

exist widely because I could

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sit on the front porch and just

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Track 1: go hog wild.

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Absolutely.

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that would be cool.

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Okay, we've

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Track 1: Okay.

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Yeah.

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have tangent.

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Wait, circling back.

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Do you remember how many weeks ago

was it that we recorded with Deb?

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Track 1: I can look it up

real quick if you want.

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.

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Track 1: it was like a

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month ago,

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so four

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Okay.

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That's what I was thinking in my head too.

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I wanted to tell the audience.

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It's that old adage of you don't

know what you have until it's gone.

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Having four weeks without Lacey, I

don't even think it was four weeks.

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I think it was three weeks that Lacey.

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I was like, oh, I, oh, it hurts my heart

to be with that weekly Lacey visits

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Track 1: Oh.

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So it was like, I was so happy for

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your move, but I was also like, I am

so ready to be back in our no shame

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groove, so I can see you once a week

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Track 1: It is nice.

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It is very nice.

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And it was nice too, because

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I actually pretty much forgot

everything we said in that episode.

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So when I listened to it anew.

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It was like, aha.

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All over again, and it was

great and timely for me.

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So I was, did

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you have, did you listen

to it anew or you'd

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Track 1: Well, I've been

editing it, so I always, but I

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did take a long break from it

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'cause I kept trying to come back

and edit it and my brain was like, no

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woman, it is too hard to edit right now.

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And then when I sat down to edit it,

it was like, oh, this is so joyful.

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I love listening to this.

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And, 'cause breaks are

like, actually good for you.

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I don't know if this is just

news to everybody, but like

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it really can't benefit.

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Says the woman with chronic

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Track 1: I know

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syndrome.

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Track 1: This is why I still struggle

with it at the end of the day.

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Any who I, but I did.

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I was editing the episode, just smiling

because it brought me so much joy.

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And especially going through a move, you

know, it takes a lot of communication

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and listening and understanding, and

I have so many moments that I'm like.

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Oh, I should have listened better there.

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Or, you know, I, you know, that was

a moment where I did listen and I

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did a good job of listening with it.

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'cause what I found is, as it,

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we're just gonna jump in, if that's

okay with you there, , because I'm,

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oh, but

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Track 1: train of thought

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has

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yeah.

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I'm at this point, I'm like, at

this point I'm like, oh no, you just

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gotta kind of grip and go for the

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Track 1: Uh,

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so it was really funny.

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Joe and I were talking about

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getting a lamp for Iris's room and

it, we were really having a hard

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time understanding each other,

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because we had a lamp in there.

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And I moved it and he was

like, it's gonna fall there.

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And I'm like, how's it gonna fall?

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And then.

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Track 1: got frustrated with each other

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and then

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came back to it later and

actually hurt each other.

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And it was really nice to, 'cause

there was also a moment within

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that where I said something like,

oh, so I can buy another lamp?

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And I meant it as oh, I can go

ahead and do this, take this step.

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Not that I was looking for

permission or anything like that.

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It's oh, that's what I need to do.

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And he thought I was like being

snarky about Purse strings

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and like all this stuff.

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And I heard it as it came out of my mouth

and then I saw it on his face and I was

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like, oh no, let me fix this right away.

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And so that listening to the words

that came outta my mouth, also

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really helped in that moment.

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But we did, we, we were sniping a

little bit in Iris's room, and then

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after the kids went to bed, I was like,

look, I just need to get back to this.

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I'm really frustrated with how that

conversation went because I truly do not

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understand what you're talking about.

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I'm not trying to be obstinate.

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I'm not trying to be a jerk.

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How is it falling?

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And then I came to find out it's 'cause

Iris has been pushing stuff off of that

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dresser, . ' cause it's next to her bed

so she can stand up and push stuff off.

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I'm like, that's a completely

different story than it just

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falling off outta nowhere.

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Okay, great.

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We can come up with solutions now.

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wait, I just pictured Iris, like

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those cat videos with a candle

where they're like, no, and I'm just

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picturing Iris on top of her dresser,

just like batting at things till

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Track 1: I mean, she would,

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she would,

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I mean in her defense, just to better

help you understand, so it's a dresser

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. that's kind of at the end of her bed

and there's a changing pad on top it, so

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we've used it as a changing table now.

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She, we don't use it as much anymore.

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Basically we only use it when she poops

because she's like in the middle potty

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training, she wears pull up diaper.

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They're not like pull ups, but we, they're

pull up diapers 'cause the other kind

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of diapers we're given a rash anyway,

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Anyway,

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Track 1: so I thought he was saying

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she would lay on there and push it off.

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I'm like, dude, she's on there.

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Maybe once a day.

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I think we can manage around that, but

apparently what she would do is stand

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on the edge of her bed and push the

changing pad at whatever was on the other

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side of the dresser to make it fall.

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and because there has been other things

on there, and he is it keeps falling.

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He's oh, are you the person that

keeps moving this back on there?

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I'm like, yeah, , because I

just didn't know, you know?

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And it was just this moment of oh,

we were not hearing each other,

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but we left when we were tense.

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We came back and we talked, and I

could hear the words coming out of

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my mouth and I was able to change.

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. And rude and it was just,

it was a win for us.

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It was a win for us for sure,

because we don't often snip at

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each other in front of the kids.

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But we had done it that night and I was

like, Ooh, this is not, yeah, so not

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the time to talk about this apparently

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and like we talked about in the

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episode, which I have been really

tapping into, it's just, I don't

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remember how she said it, but if

you're not calm, how did she say it?

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Not that you're not centered or calm,

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Track 1: regulated.

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in an elev

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Track 1: Elevated,

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yeah.

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she talked about like your, yeah,

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like your elevated emotional status.

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And I have I am way more in tune I don't

even say things when I'm like, oh, it's

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not gonna come out the way I want it to.

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no one's going to hear me if it comes

out this moment, So I'm just more

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aware of not saying useless anger,

that's just gonna bum everyone else

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out, But I say it when I'm calm.

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And then I am able to say it

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calmly instead of angrily, which I

think is good for everyone around me.

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I do have to tell you.

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So after we did Deb's episode, I was,

the next day I was at a friend's house

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and I was telling her about the episode.

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'cause it just, it's, I was thinking

about how it's simple, but pa it's

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not, it's simple, but it's not simple.

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Track 1: It's,

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I'm using the same word or choice.

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It's not simple to

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do,

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Track 1: is simple

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to say.

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It's hard to do.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So I was talking to my friend

about it, and I'm not joking

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you, her jaw dropped open.

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we just the basics of, and

we started talking about how

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do we listen to our children?

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How do we wish our children listen to us?

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How does our spouse listen to us?

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How do we wish our spouse listen

to us and she was just sort of

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seeing the power of this one

thing, and I thought, yes, I know.

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it's so powerful.

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Track 1: You know, that's funny.

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As we're talking about this, it

reminded me of a conversation

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I had with Isaac last night.

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Was it last night or the night before?

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I'm not sure.

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So Isaac's four, and Isaac

has a lot of big feelings.

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He is my child.

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He has big feelings.

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I have big feelings.

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And he's four.

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His big feelings are not rooted in logic.

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and Joe is a very logical man.

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He comes at it with logic and Isaac

has started to pick up on those

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like nuances of what we say, and one

of them is you're not listening to

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me, and it was really interesting.

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He wanted a knife.

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He wanted so we have like

kids, plastic knives,

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I was like, whoa,

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Track 1: previous night we had

waffles and I asked him, I was like,

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bud, do you want a plastic knife to

try to cut your waffle up yourself?

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You know?

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'cause it was soft food.

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He could experiment.

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So this next night he wanted a knife

and I was like, buddy, I'm sorry.

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I'm not gonna give you a knife

because this meal doesn't call for it.

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And I talked about how tools are,

we use tools when we need them.

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You don't need a knife right now,

so we're not gonna get out a knife.

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And maybe it was 'cause also I was

just like, I'm not dealing with this.

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And he looked at me and he said,

mommy, you're not listening to me.

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To which I just had this moment

where I'm like, oh, he equates

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listening with obeying someone.

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And so we have this con conversation.

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I'm like, buddy, I can see why you

would think that I am listening to you.

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I do hear you.

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I understand what you're saying.

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I just.

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I'm not agreeing with what you're

saying and I, as you were just talking

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about it with your friend, I just had

this moment, I'm like, oh my gosh.

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I had to explain listening

to Isaac and it's hard.

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It was hard for me to, 'cause

I'm sure when he hears me say

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things, it comes as a command.

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Right.

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And he doesn't know

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He doesn't know

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Track 1: anything different.

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So it was just interesting for me

to have to be like, okay, buddy.

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No, you know.

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Listening is not about just

following what someone says.

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It's about hearing and

understanding what they're saying.

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So I'm disagreeing with you and I'm

explaining why I am disagreeing with you.

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I don't know if it got

through, but still it was hard.

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Explain listening to a four year old,

and it's my, that's my challenge to

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our listeners, , that if you try to

explain listening, not obeying listening.

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As a different thing.

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It's challenging

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I do not accept the challenge

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because, my spouse and I are still

working on what listening means.

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So circle back in 10 to 15 years.

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that's a really important distinction

though, listening because it's true.

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Think of as a parent when your child is

doing something or not doing something

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and you'll say, are you listening to me?

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Which really they're saying, you not

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obey?

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Like, Why aren't you

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Track 1: you

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Is really the

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Track 1: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's so interesting.

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Now I'm gonna really try to be careful

about it because Isaac is a really good

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selective listener, of you know, . Do

this, do this, do this, do this.

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And I do, you know, get into like his

face and make sure that he like hears me.

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And so I think we might work on

breaking down, listening a bit more

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of I hear you, I understand you.

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I will do what you're asking.

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And to show him that those are

different aspects of listening.

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Yeah, no, I think that, yeah,

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that just blew my mind too.

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I'd never really thought about that.

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I did think of a tangent story, which

is I actually thought my son had hearing

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issues when he was about three and

a half, because he wouldn't listen.

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So I used to walk up really close behind

him and say the word ice cream really

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quietly to see if he could Don't worry.

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His hearing

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was fine 'cause he heard me

every time I said ice cream.

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What I did learn when he was

younger was if I sang what I wanted

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to say, he could hear it better.

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I mean, it really be, it really was an age

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thing, but if I needed him to pick

up his shoes, I mean, I'm not gonna

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sing right now because it's not

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Track 1: disappointed, but

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I would do it.

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I would do it

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lyrically.

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it would somehow click in his brain

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better.

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So anywho, if anyone's out there with a

young child not listening, try singing.

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Track 1: I'm going to.

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Also, it d it also, if you start to

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feel frustrated, it helps dissipate the

frustration because you're trying to sing.

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I'm telling you, it actually sometimes

actually in my house now, I will.

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Sing stuff and that's actually code

for mom's about to lose her crap.

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Like It doesn't happen very

much, but it gets people's

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attention.

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I was gonna say, when I was listening

to Deb's episode, Lacey knows this

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'cause we had talked about it.

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My energy has gone.

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down, which big revelation I

realized, you can't show up as the

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same person every day consistently.

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that's like a real big ask.

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And I was like, oh, it's okay.

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I'm not showing up as the

same person 365 days a year.

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So accepting that, but

my energy was really low.

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And then I listened to the Deb episode

and I realized listening to yourself.

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Track 1: Yes.

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you've, it's so easy to have that monkey

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mind that auto fills and chatters nonstop.

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But if you stop, if you like quiet the

monkey mind and actually listened to

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what your body's trying to tell you,

and I realized, yeah, I hadn't been

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taught to listen to myself and that was

super powerful for me to just take in.

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And stop with the judgments

around all of it as well.

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And li like really hear

what those sounded like.

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Which didn't sound good.

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I'm pretty, I don't recommend

it but it was helpful.

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So I like that, like taking this

whole thing of listening and it.

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Looking at it from different angles,

like explaining, listening to a child,

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learning how to listen to ourselves.

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I mean, I think there's so

many different ways to approach

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it and to implement it in our

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lives.

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And like I said, in four weeks, I've

pretty much forgotten the goodness of it.

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So I feel like I need to listen to this

episode once a month to remind myself.

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Track 1: I mean, listening to

yourself is a skill that, chronic

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illness has forced into me.

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but I'm still not great about it.

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I mean.

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great about it.

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Track 1: I've talked about this

in several places, but I've been

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really stressed lately, but not

letting myself recognize it.

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So for some reason, my brain has picked

Travis Kel as a safe place to land.

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I have no desire.

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For this man.

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Like it's not like I'm a, I'm

sure he's handsome, but I have

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no like feelings towards him.

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But for some reason my brain's like that's

a safe topic and it just lands there.

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And I really thought I was

going crazy until I talked to

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my therapist and she explain.

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I'm like, let's think about all

these different changes going on.

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You're seeing this man

everywhere in social media.

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It's probably a signal.

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For you that your brain just keeps

taking this detour to this man.

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And I was like, oh yeah.

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And I have, as soon as I like started

to recognize it, I have started to

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recognize that he pops into my brain

when I'm starting to feel overwhelmed

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and I'm not letting myself recognize

it, or I'm mindlessly scrolling as

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a way to put a bandaid on something.

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So he's become like

this, Alarm for me now,

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what?

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So what is the next,

what is the next step?

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So you realize the Travis

Kel alarm is going off.

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And then are you supposed to

reroute your brain back to

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just stay there and play?

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Play with Travis Kelsey

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Track 1: we again, like this is

one of those things that I can't,

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and Joe thinks it's hilarious.

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I told him about it finally, and he thinks

it's the funniest thing in the world.

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And so every once in a while

he'll be like, so are you working

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on your fan fiction for him?

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And I'm like, shut up, Joe.

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First of all, I think fan fiction

about real people is creepy.

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Okay.

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Stats, step one, step two.

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If I did, it wouldn't.

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It would be inspired by, and

it would be a sports romance.

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Do I already kind of have

an outline in my mind?

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Maybe.

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I don't know.

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But here's the thing, and it's not the

Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift of it all.

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it's fine.

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I'm not gonna tell you all, 'cause

maybe someday I'll write it under

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a pen name and you'll never know.

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Anyway, usually it means that I am needing

to do some kind of mindfulness because I'm

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not letting my brain be in the present.

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I'm . I'm usually like either

thinking about everything that needs

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to be done in the future, everything

that we could have done differently

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in the, you know what I mean?

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And so it usually is a signal that I

need to do some kind of mindfulness.

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So whether that's.

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and I'm still figuring out

what mindfulness means for me.

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'cause yes, I'll do some like breaths and

that kinda stuff, but I get bored with it.

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So I've started to try to find, and that's

where I'm like, that's why I was doing

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so good when I was doing my knitting and

my crocheting 'cause it was helping me

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be mindful 'cause I was in the moment

while I was doing it with my hands.

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once I can find all of that and get

the inspiration to do that again,

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I'll probably break that out.

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I mean, two things.

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One, there are worse things to

detour to when you're stressed.

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I mean, of all the things to pick.

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Not bad actually, I have three things.

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The second thing is, I don't know if

you've ever seen this on interstates

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where there's runaway, there's for

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runaway trucks.

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What do you call those?

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Runaway?

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Yeah, so I was just picturing like your

brain, and every time it's too stressed.

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It's like Travis skills.

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It's like the runaway for semis.

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Anyone listening who doesn't

know what I'm talking

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Track 1: Drive through West Virginia.

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You'll see it when we go on

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Yeah.

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If you can't control, what is it?

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You can't slow

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down in time or you can't control

yourself going down a hill.

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Then these trucks go up this like little

half bowl kind of to slow themselves down.

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So yeah.

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So worse things to do than Travis Kelsey.

495

Third is though, I think that

dovetails perfectly into this whole

496

listening thing.

497

it's almost to me, mindfulness,

there's a lot of different definitions,

498

but one I heard recently was it

was just being aware of what you're

499

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

500

it's almost as though Travis Kelsey is

501

a flag saying, Hey, why don't you just

actually look at what you're thinking and

502

you don't have to do anything with it.

503

As I heard one meditation guru say.

504

It's like a bird flies into your barn,

but you don't have to make a nest for

505

it.

506

Like you can't control the bird flying in.

507

Just see

508

it.

509

Don't play with it Just see it and let it

510

Track 1: And again, this is where

I feel, again, I need to stress,

511

I'm not playing with Travis, Kelsey

in any way, state shape or form.

512

I've got my own dance with anxiety in

513

my life, and I used to have

this thing where if something

514

freaked me out, especially when

I was younger, like a movie I

515

shouldn't have watched,

that was too creepy.

516

My brain would go to it.

517

Track 1: yes.

518

Yeah.

519

And so I know, and it would pop up

at the most weird times, but it was

520

this weird anxiety safety blanket.

521

oh, we'll actually be anxious about this.

522

for a while I was really,

I used to do this job.

523

This is tangent.

524

I used to do this job where I

rescued cold stunned sea turtles.

525

Oh, this is a job you

don't know about yet.

526

I feel like my friend Jim.

527

My friend Jim has had so many jobs.

528

I'm still learning about new jobs

and I want him to write a book.

529

I feel like my friend Jim,

530

so

531

Track 1: How does one, I

have so many questions now.

532

How does one get a job

533

get a job.

534

Track 1: rescuing Cold Sea turtles?

535

Okay.

536

So I got the job because I was moving

from Nebraska to Massachusetts and I

537

needed a job and my aunt had a friend

who lived In the town I was moving to.

538

And she said, oh, there's

this seasonal job.

539

And so it was through my

540

Track 1: Gotcha.

541

aunt's friend that I applied for this job.

542

And it was only for three months, but it

was at least something for me to do right

543

when I got there.

544

But the hours were super weird 'cause

you have to do it with the tide.

545

So the tide changes every single day.

546

So sometimes I would go out at two

547

in the morning, like really weird times.

548

So sometimes I'm like out in the dark by

myself and then I'd have to drive home and

549

there were no street lights where I lived,

so I'd have to drive home in the dark.

550

I got obsessed about aliens

551

Track 1: naturally

552

So my little anxiety would kept going

553

to aliens all the time, But it took me

a long time to realize that was actually

554

anxiety.

555

Track 1: Mm-Hmm.

556

Just like something to toy oh,

557

go here.

558

Oh, go here.

559

Yeah, I've so Travis Kel,

that's why I said, I'm like,

560

there's worse things than Travis

561

Kelsey to.

562

Track 1: I, so like now I wanna

know more about the aliens.

563

So is it that they're coming to

get us or are you looking for them?

564

so there was this movie that came out.

565

When I was in high school maybe,

and it was based on a true story

566

and I can't remember the name of it.

567

All I can remember is this one scene

where the guy ends up under a table

568

and there's syrup dripping and it

causes him to have a flashback.

569

This guy disappeared

570

and then he reappears,

but he is not the same

571

person, and it's about,

do you believe his story?

572

So you get to see the

flashbacks of his story.

573

So when I was doing this job, like that

was the memory that I was like thinking

574

of being, because they were in the dark.

575

Track 1: Yeah.

576

When one of their friends got abducted.

577

And so like I started to think I was

gonna get abducted 'cause I had to walk

578

by myself, And this was pre, like we

had cell phones, but they weren't nearly

579

as good

580

Track 1: no, like the more you explain

it, the more that I'm like, yes, I would

581

think this too, that, or you know, an

ax murderer, but I, you know, I think

582

aliens is the better of the two, frankly.

583

It would've been much better for me

584

to be worried about an ax murder.

585

Never once was I worried about an ax

murderer that would've made more sense.

586

But yeah, the alien thing, and then

the alien would pop up at all times

587

of day.

588

Not just

589

then, but yeah.

590

So anywho, so from listening to, thank you

for listening to my story about aliens.

591

So did you explain, I was just curious

592

with the Joe thing, did you explain to him

the whole listening podcast premise so he

593

knows that, like coming back with a calm

594

head?

595

No.

596

you just implement, I actually

talked to my family about basics

597

Track 1: I mean, we should,

598

I, we, life has been such chaos,

599

chaos.

600

I know

601

Track 1: And so, no, it's not.

602

It's just that, you know, and I think

this actually kind of goes with what

603

we're talking about is Joe and I have

been doing so much communication purely

604

about task and is this getting done?

605

Is this getting done?

606

Have you done this?

607

Where's this?

608

we still don't know

where my coffee maker is.

609

I

610

still

611

Track 1: I swear it, it

has been ab objected.

612

I don't know what else

could have happened to it.

613

By aliens.

614

Track 1: aliens.

615

I mean

616

It all comes

617

Track 1: they do need caffeination with

or caffeinated beverages too, but I just

618

and but it's so interesting

how in all of this task

619

communication, I feel like you

would get better at listening

620

and I think we've gotten worse

621

but that makes sense to me because the

622

listening is associated with a task

and you're not really dealing with

623

the emotions that are building up.

624

So to me,

625

I get that 'cause.

626

Because you have to get these things done.

627

There's all these deadlines.

628

But meanwhile, you're getting exhausted.

629

You're getting frustrated.

630

You're getting overwhelmed,

631

right?

632

And so you need a break, girl?

633

You just need

634

Track 1: Yeah.

635

And I mean, I.

636

Give me a break.

637

Track 1: Oh, I would love a

638

Kit Katt.

639

Oh my gosh,

640

Give me a break.

641

Track 1: Kit Katt part.

642

oh, now I want a Kit Katt.

643

not sponsored by Kit

644

Track 1: we would love, you

know, we would love to be

645

Also Nespresso, if

646

you're

647

Track 1: so you are the coffeemaker

I do have, and that I do love, but

648

you're a little expensive for me.

649

And

650

little expense.

651

, Track 1: I have a cheap everyday

one that is the one that's gone.

652

I mean, have I been living the high

life of my nespressos every day?

653

Yes,

654

655

So what I'm hearing is the old,

the other coffee maker isn't lost.

656

It's misplaced.

657

I did air quotations,

658

Track 1: It really is lost.

659

It is.

660

It has become like my white whale

in moving now, like of just I, I

661

don't understand where it could be.

662

I swear I have opened and touched

every single box that has come

663

into this house and I don't know

what happened to it, so it's fine.

664

It's fine.

665

Anyway, , I don't know

what we're talking about,

666

back.

667

Back

668

to listening.

669

Oh, I asked if you had talked about

670

the basics of the

listening to your family.

671

Track 1: And, but I do think I

would love to talk to Joe about it.

672

'cause with his ADHD sometimes

673

674

Track 1: What helps me listen

to him, makes it harder for him

675

to listen to me and vice versa.

676

So like sometimes he needs an activity

and so he'll be doing something like

677

on his phone while I'm talking, and

that makes me feel like he's not

678

listening, you know what I mean?

679

And then it becomes this loop.

680

So I do think it would be really

beneficial for us to have a conversation

681

just about how do we listen best?

682

How can we get these messages

to each other better?

683

And.

684

Do it not when we're already in the

middle of a conversation because , that's

685

usually gonna maybe make tensions go a

little higher and all of those things.

686

two thoughts.

687

One was, do you like how I itemize

688

everything

689

Track 1: actually really do.

690

Two thoughts.

691

That's how my brain, that's my

very projector, like structured.

692

That's how I see things in my head.

693

But number one is, so yes,

I was thinking about The off

694

the services that Deb offers.

695

And I thought, man, it would be so

nice to have some kind of family

696

friendly seminar because

everyone could benefit

697

from that and somehow making

it age accessible for everyone.

698

And then two was, this is.

699

A sneak peek into the future, which

is we're gonna have an executive

700

functioning specialist on, and we should

very much ask her about how do you go

701

through listening with somebody who has

autism, ADHD, you know, their executive

702

functioning skills are differently,

are different, but communicate.

703

It's like communication's still

important, but it's, it needs to be done

704

differently for there to be success.

705

Track 1: Yes.

706

Yeah.

707

And it's,

708

I think if I learned anything in my

communication studies, 'cause I have

709

a master's degree in it, it's fine.

710

is that, there is no, and I mean

no one size fits all communication

711

solution.

712

Zero.

713

If somebody promises that in any context,

714

they're lying because context is

really important when it comes to

715

listening and context is physically

where you are, but it's also who

716

you are, where you came from, what

your relationship with this person.

717

There are so many different factors

718

that go into it.

719

720

Track 1: and

721

722

Track 1: you both bring that into whatever

723

situation that you're going into.

724

And so

725

and so

726

Track 1: knowing more about that, knowing

727

what makes him, you know, would

make his brain norm more about ADHD.

728

more.

729

Track 1: Is a game changer.

730

And I think something that we could

all benefit from when we're talking

731

with other people and trying to

listen to other people is also to

732

tell people how we listen best.

733

Yeah, no, that's really important

734

because I, again, bringing this back to

735

the home and you're sharing a home

with other people and it's so true.

736

Not everyone is gonna.

737

Commu, I mean, even with just two

people, I mean, forget about a

738

whole country, like just two people.

739

You're both coming in with some

sort of unspoken way that you

740

want to speak and want to be

741

heard.

742

And I mean, these are the things that they

don't talk about when you're doing your

743

mar your wedding registry or like picking

out anything like this is the stuff.

744

Track 1: It is

745

is the stuff that leads to divorce and I'm

746

laughing because again, it's like simple

concept, really tough to execute, like

747

Track 1: So tough and it's

748

hard because I think we as a

society have created kind of one

749

narrative around what good listening

looks like, and I gotta say.

750

I am in like top 1% of what it

looks like to listen, right?

751

Like I'm an eye contact.

752

I give so much eye contact

753

and like facial expression and nodding.

754

Literally one of my eight professors

in grad school was like, I have

755

to stop looking at you because

you're giving so much intentional.

756

Feedback that you are with me, that

you're understanding what's happening.

757

You're nodding, if you want

someone in a crowd to look you in

758

the eye and cheer you on, smile.

759

Not, I'm your gal.

760

That is me.

761

I will like

762

al.

763

I like, I do.

764

I just, that's who I am.

765

That's how I listen.

766

But it's also how I've learned,

like I have been blessed with

767

the ability to listen and learn.

768

Like vocal, like that

kind of stuff right away.

769

And most people aren't like that.

770

And so I just, I

771

recognize that even though that's

what I experienced, that is not

772

what it is for everybody else.

773

And every once in a while, like I'll,

someone will, I'll be in a meeting

774

and someone's do you wanna take notes?

775

And I'm like, no.

776

That will actually distract me.

777

And then I won't hear what's being

said and I won't comprehend it.

778

Or I can't do subtitles on things because

they distract me too much from what I'm

779

hearing, and then I miss the concepts.

780

So it's just interesting how some

of those different accommodations

781

for other people actually get in

the way for me, which is fine.

782

I can do, I can figure it out, but it just

goes back to this idea that there is no

783

one right way and that we, it needs to

be our responsibility too, to say, Hey.

784

785

Track 1: this is how I listen.

786

So like I've been, I like have

gone to meetings and Hey, I'm not

787

taking notes, because that will

get in the way of me understanding.

788

You know what I mean?

789

So I challenge you.

790

beyond trying to explain listening

to a four year old , I challenge you

791

to think about what is your ideal

listening situation and how can you

792

incorporate that into your everyday

life and telling people what you need.

793

really interesting.

794

And now I am thinking way more

in depth about the way me and my

795

partner communicate what was a

trigger to me and my childhood about

796

as the youngest child not feeling

797

heard.

798

And then thinking about how it is

that my spouse actually listens best.

799

is a trigger for me because I feel like

I'm not, and I was like, oh, I just put

800

that together like you said, different

people listen differently and I want him

801

to listen the way I wanna feel valid.

802

I wanna feel validated.

803

And so I'm like, oh, I need to work

around that and find a different solution.

804

Yeah.

805

That's just, it's again, it's simple but

806

complicated.

807

Track 1: Yeah.

808

I like that you emphasized if anybody

809

says there's one way to communicate,

like universally, it's not true.

810

And I think that's so important to

remember that even though you're saying

811

it, it may not be received the way

812

you're saying it.

813

I had that a lot with my son, not

now that he's a little bit older,

814

but when he was younger, he'd have

these really complicated ideas and I

815

knew he could see things in his head

in a certain way, but then he'd go

816

to tell me and I wasn't getting it.

817

And he gets, I mean,

you know, when they're

818

younger

819

Track 1: and they get so

820

zero to a hundred, and I had to keep over

821

and over saying, Nope, I know you see it.

822

I just

823

don't see it yet.

824

So tell me more about this

part and he got impatient.

825

'cause as a kid, you know, you want

everything in this moment, but yeah,

826

it was, so I'm realizing that's

the same thing with adults too.

827

Like you have to just really be like,

I don't know if I'm seeing it from your

828

view, and then maybe even saying back,

829

this is what I heard.

830

My brother-in-Law, worked in a

nuclear power plant and he has all

831

this jargon that he uses That's from

those days, and I can't remember

832

what he says, but it's basically that

you have to say back what you heard.

833

It's this confirmation because they

have to do these multiple steps to make

834

sure they're not, you know, blowing

835

anything up, or anything catastrophic.

836

So yeah, he has like this acronym that he

would use and then I realized, I'm like,

837

oh, but that's like really handy just.

838

did you hear me say milk, eggs, and bread?

839

Or did you hear me say

Doritos, duct tape and a piano?

840

what did you, What?

841

Track 1: a party I wanna go to.

842

just, it's such a fundamental, we feel,

843

val, I think we feel validated when we're

844

heard.

845

Track 1: Going back to what we were

talking about with task communication,

846

I mean, that's a lot of what home

management is and . I'm just really

847

starting to realize that with home

management and task communication,

848

it is so easy to turn off listening

when it comes to that 'cause it's so

849

rote and just like repetitive and not

interesting or fun and that kind of thing.

850

And, you know, I usually,

I'm not a big fan of like

851

gamification of things personally.

852

I think it's a novelty that wears off and

then doesn't leave you with a whole lot.

853

yeah.

854

Track 1: But for some people, adding

something like that into their home

855

management could make a big deal, and

so I'm just wondering if there are

856

other ways to make home management

exciting , not necessarily exciting,

857

but just ways to, help keep novelty, to

make it less rote and more interesting

858

to be able to want to listen.

859

so two things.

860

One, I think in some, I think in

some things with home management,

861

I think rotes is actually an

asset, like brushing your teeth.

862

You don't think about it,

863

you just do it.

864

And I think there's some things where

if we can just actually get it so

865

automatic, it's just because you gotta

866

get

867

Track 1: it has to be

on mic for everybody.

868

Yeah.

869

Yeah.

870

But then the novelty thing, that is

definitely something to think about.

871

And I know when we talked to Corey,

our executive management, functioning

872

management specialist, I can't say all

those words that novelty is a really

873

big deal with people who are neurodiverse.

874

But I will go back to the

listening part with home management

875

stuff being really boring,

876

which is true.

877

But one thing I communicate with

my clients a lot is to be very It's

878

careful, not careful, but selective

with how you're communicating to

879

your family, what needs to be done.

880

Not I need you to empty the dishwasher,

but Dishwasher needs to be emptied.

881

Taking out like really?

882

'cause again, it's like, where does

that person go to in their head?

883

oh, they don't wanna do it.

884

So they're asking me to do it.

885

Not it needs to be done.

886

So being careful with what

you're saying, but you're right.

887

How do you get somebody to listen

to something that's super boring?

888

You sing

889

Track 1: Ah,

890

you sing it.

891

Track 1: The dishwasher

needs to be loaded.

892

Little heavy metal.

893

I don't take out the trash.

894

Take out the trash My

boys like Iron Maiden.

895

So that's why that came out

that way because maybe they

896

would hear me if I did it.

897

But yeah, maybe that's the novelty.

898

Maybe that's a way, like if

everything had a little button.

899

That had a prerecorded song in there,

You just push that button for the task.

900

Track 1: I think I'll take

this a little bit deeper.

901

I think laughing about it makes it.

902

so much easier.

903

So I think, humor and it can

make it also a little bit

904

easier to deal with, you know,

905

Now I'm gonna sing all of

my instructions later today.

906

I gotta get ready for it.

907

I'll do some vocal

908

warmups.

909

I should do vocal rest.

910

Until then,

911

yeah, I'm curious.

912

I mean, but I also think you'd have

to change up the way you sing things.

913

'cause even that will

become white noise, right?

914

It's so you gotta have a calendar of this

is the tone I'm gonna use to sing things

915

today.

916

Maybe we can get Chad GPT in on it.

917

What's a weird way I can

tell my family to do things?

918

Oh, maybe we can third

919

Track 1: Oh.

920

this.

921

We can ask Alexa

922

or Google or Siri, or

whoever your home Omicron is.

923

Ask them to make the request.

924

Track 1: I honestly, these are all ideas.

925

It was like, I know we're giggling,

but like I think that these could

926

all be ways to help someone hear you.

927

like you said, there's no one way.

928

I mean, I know families where all those

to-do things are checklists on a shared

929

electronic, you know,

so nobody has to say it.

930

Their one job is to look at that

electronic checklist and then check

931

off when it's done for the day.

932

Then I guess you kinda have to dig

and just see, you know, what is,

933

you have to be an investigator,

put on your private investigator

934

Track 1: I mean, yeah, it's

tailor your communication . That's

935

another communication thing.

936

Tag, tagline, Tailor your communication.

937

Track 1: Yeah.

938

But again, I think this is

939

something we brought up with Deb.

940

What this is all getting to is that

home, CEO, who is the one who's

941

always communicating it can get really

942

tiring to not feel heard and Because we

were talking about that with Deb, it's

943

you wanna say what you wanna say and be

heard, but the other person also wants

944

to say what they wanna say and be heard.

945

And it's you can't be two, you

can't be two roles at once.

946

So that's why Deb's services

are really important, ' cause

947

she will listen and fully listen,

but it does get exhausting.

948

I don't know if I think

I've mentioned this.

949

I do this fun little trick in

my house where If I don't feel

950

appreciated for everything I'm doing,

I'll just start thinking myself.

951

Like in the third person, it's a

little cray, but that's how we roll.

952

So I'll just be like, thanks

mom, for emptying the dishwasher.

953

That was mighty kind of you, even

though it was so and so's job.

954

It's a

955

slightly

956

Track 1: So I was gonna say it's

a little passive aggress though.

957

but I do it in like a comical way.

958

It gets its point across.

959

It's like it's a

960

comedy bit now.

961

Track 1: love some bits.

962

I do love

963

it's a bit, it's a bit, and it keeps,

964

again, it keeps me from yelling.

965

I just, I don't like yelling.

966

I don't, some people that's

how they communicate.

967

I lived with somebody who was from

a yelling family, and it's if she

968

didn't yell it, it didn't happen.

969

I was like, I don't like this.

970

Why are you yelling all the time?

971

Track 1: Yeah.

972

Yeah.

973

No, I'm not a fan of yelling, so

that's a no thank you from me.

974

Yeah.

975

I can't, that's an elevated, I

can't remember how Deb said it.

976

An

977

elevated,

978

Track 1: Emotional state.

979

I dysregulated if you're dis.

980

That

981

makes me dysregulated.

982

I feel dys teach that to your son,

983

Track 1: I've tried.

984

I literally,

985

we were trying with, 'cause

like he has, like I said, he has

986

big feelings, . He regrets it.

987

It's that he regrets what he does

later that I'm like, buddy, we both

988

know that this isn't what you want.

989

Let's get there together.

990

But in the moment, he could not handle it.

991

So we're reading a lot of

books about our feelings and

992

our temper and what we can do.

993

yeah.

994

I've hit a wall.

995

Sarah

996

I saw it.

997

I saw it in your eyes five

minutes ago, but I hear you.

998

I heard you

999

and I

Track 1: That is a form

of listening though.

Seeing the other person and

like seeing their expression.

I have to say, the people that

I spend the most time with, and

you are one of them now, like my

mom and Joe can always know like.

. There's some kind of manifestation that

happens on my face that no one's really

been able to express, but they're like, oh

yeah, go lay down.

Or, why are you doing that?

Stop it.

you doing it I didn't want to over parent.

I didn't wanna

parent you.

So I was like, I put, I was like, okay,

Track 1: Yeah.

Track 1: So wrap it up.

do we wanna do moment of gratitude now or

Track 1: no, let's do it.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

I'm

you up for it.

Track 1: Yes.

I'm up.

Alright.

You can go first.

Track 1: Oh my gosh.

Okay.

I, my, my gratitude is my parents

like, I not shout to the rooftops how

wonderful my parents and my family

have been in this moving process.

Like they have taken care of so much of

the physical work of getting us moved.

And as someone who cannot do that

physical work, it is invaluable.

Like I just, the amount of things

that just get done when they come,

have come over and helped, you

know, there are no words and there

is not enough gratitude that I in

the world to really express that.

And so just having people show up

for you physically to do the things

that you can't are, it's just

Magical, magical.

And so I am so grateful for them in

that now they're a little bit closer.

So like they stopped over for a

little bit yesterday and played

with the kids and took 'em to the

park and that was really nice.

and it's also been nice too, just

that means I get to spend more time

with them and I've really enjoyed it.

Like my mom has done some. Sick

burns on me lately because

she's like really nice about it.

But then I have a tendency

to do things quickly

and then sometimes hastily

and she knows that.

And so I was like, oh, I'll do that.

And she's no, I'll do it.

I'll do it.

'cause she knows she'll do it.

Right.

and I won't.

And just as quick as she said

it, it was just such a beautiful

burn on me and what I can do.

And so I've just been really enjoying,

the unintentional mom burns lately too.

So that's another thing I'm grateful for.

that is so beautiful, and I am so thankful

that you had that beautiful support

for such a big

life

Track 1: like all of my siblings showed

up to help us move every single one.

I just cannot stress it enough

how grateful I am for that.

did you have a moving company at

all, or Just the power of your fam?

Track 1: of my family.

Yeah.

Track 1: Yep.

I, we rented a big old U-Haul and my

family, came on Saturday to fill it up.

And then we drove it up on Saturday and

then they came again on Sunday morning to

empty it out and they were gone by two.

I mean, it helps to be one of five

kids, you know, and their spouses

and children who could come did.

So that's really nice.

But yeah,

Could you do a family text thread?

Hey, where's my coffee maker?

Did one of you nick it should

have taken the good one,

Track 1: I mean, I'm glad they didn't

take the good one, but you know, I.

I, we, it has become

again, my white whale.

I will find it and it will be

in a very unexpected place.

Honestly, if I had to guess, it's in this

room, in one of these boxes underneath

something, and I just didn't know it.

But the room I'm in now, I don't

wanna unpack yet because a lot

of it's gonna go on bookshelves

that we don't have yet, you know?

And so I think it'll show up in a month.

That's my prediction.

So any of you listening, let's start

a pool and bet Where is, which room?

In her house or not at

her property is Lacey's

Track 1: It is not in the old house.

We went there this weekend,

we've cleared it all out.

It is empty, so it's not there.

We are confident about that.

but there's still a slight possibility.

Somebody from your family

just walked off with it.

Track 1: I.

I'm not calling them thieves, I'm

Track 1: You are just implying it.

It was not Carolyn.

Track 1: it was not

Carolyn.

was not

Track 1: She has an

espresso and she likes it.

So she would never, lower

her expectations like that.

if they did, I would

hope they would just ask.

I would give them anything,

I know, I

Track 1: but who knows?

Who knows?

know.

Track 1: are you grateful for, Sarah?

So the listeners didn't get to

see it 'cause it's a podcast.

But when Lacey and I came on, I had on my

son's Halloween mask and it's a wolf mask.

And I the look on Lacey's face as

she registered me coming on the

meeting and then registered what

I was wearing and then watching

her laugh, it was so worth it.

It was so worth it.

I, it was It was all I wanted

and more, and I couldn't have

asked for anything better.

I made you laugh.

That was my moment of gratitude, , and

Track 1: You did it's also funny

'cause sometimes you come into the

Zoom or into the thing and I'm like

doing something else and you like just

stare for a while and like I think.

Not sta I don't, honestly, I

don't know what you're doing,

but I know.

Then I'll show, oh, I'll realize you're

there, . And so this time I wasn't.

And it was perfect because it was

like, boom, there It was a werewolf.

a aware Sarah,

Track 1: a aware

morning aware This morning I had a Zoom

meeting for this group that I'm a part of.

The, this volunteer group.

And so we all showed up and the person

who organizes it, some, something was

wrong with hers and she was on her

phone, but the camera wasn't working.

And then it was, she said,

oh, I have to go do something.

And she walked away.

And then, so there was nine of us and

all just staring at the screen muted.

So I unmuted and I was like, should we

have a dance party while she's gone?

So we all.

Start, we all start dancing in

our little boxes and then she

comes on, she goes, what makes you

think that's not what I was doing?

That's what the leader said.

And I was like, oh.

I was like, she was watching

us Again, little pleasures.

That's what makes the

day worth it.

Track 1: us get through the day, the joy.

Absolutely.

I wanna respect your tired

place, and say thank you.

It's so good to

see you

Track 1: too.

appreciate all

Track 1: Thanks again to DAB for a

really great conversation and so much to

think about.

thank you, Deb.

Thank you for the work that

you're doing and thank

you for sharing your time.

Yeah.

I hope to have more Deb

with us in the future.

That would

be awesome.

Track 1: agreed.

All right.

Thanks y'all.

thank you.