Lacey: 00:00:00

Welcome to No Shame in the Home Game, the podcast that cares how your home feels, not looks. I am Lacey, your co host, excited to be in the room where it's happening, So I'm going to introduce our co host who knows what's happening, and that's Sarah.

Sara: 00:00:15

Hi,

Lacey: 00:00:16

Sarah.

Sara: 00:00:17

Hi, Lacey. when you said that it automatically triggered Hamilton in my head. I know

Lacey: 00:00:22

I was like, I know Hamilton's not cool anymore, but it's okay.

Sara: 00:00:27

It's forever cool. So we are in the room where it's going to happen. Yes. I have brought on today, an expert that I am very excited about my friend, Erin, who will introduce us today. Herself in a second. Erin and I have known one another for at least 12 years in different capacities. We used to live near one another. Now we live in different states, but we have continued to grow together, which I think is amazing. And. Such a beautiful opportunity. Erin has served as my coach and I say to everyone who will listen, I wouldn't be where I am today without Erin. so Erin, if you would like to introduce yourself just a little bit about who you are, where you are and the type of work that you do, whatever you're comfortable sharing.

Erin: 00:01:17

Thank you. Thank you, Lacey and Sarah. And that was a nice introduction. thanks for inviting me on your show. I love what you two are doing and, how you support everybody. And I love how you two get along on this show. It's very, very sweet. My name is Erin Johnson, and I'm a certified life coach, and I work primarily with women. In and around midlife who are stuck or out of balance, and I help them recenter for success. I got into this coaching profession because in my early 40s, there were areas of my life which were pretty out of balance. I was over angry. If that's a phrase, I was over resentful. I was over drinking. And at that time I was doing a lot of finger pointing and blaming others for my behavior. And there's a story I call clean up on aisle four that I won't tell right now, but that led me to hiring a life coach. And through coaching with Juliet, she helped me see where I was not paying attention to my own thoughts. And that was something that I was never taught. To look at my thoughts and thread them to my feelings and then to my actions. And that's how I ended up in this profession and helping others, primarily women, becoming aware of their thoughts and helping them clear their clutter in their brain. what you do in the home. So yeah, that's where I'm at.

Sara: 00:02:44

That's such a cool way to phrase it. I'd never thought of it that way, but yeah, clearing the clutter of your thoughts and you were describing about tuning in with your thoughts and your feelings and taking ownership, like all that good stuff, I just thought. Oh, one day this will be taught in primary school. This will be a foundation instead of learning it after the pain point. Can you imagine learning all of this? the world would be a different place. So yes, when I started working with Erin, it was exactly that. I was in my 40s. And it was just like, nothing feels good, man. Like I just was itchy in every department of my life. And I just, I did, I had that now or never just do I want to change things or do I want it to keep being like this? So I'm thankful for the work that you do. it was through your discomfort that you came to this. And it's through my own discomfort that I came to a lot of the work that I do as well. And it's through Lacey's discomfort that she came to the middle and her journey. So it is nice. I want to honor and appreciate this moment of we all took that discomfort and not only moved through it, but decided to. Help others, which I think is what we can do in life.

Lacey: 00:03:58

Can I say that I'm really excited to talk to Erin because I believe she is the originator of the joy ripple concept. Yes. you're like a celebrity to me because I'm like, Oh, this is a big deal in my life. So thank you.

Sara: 00:04:12

Yeah. This picture right over my shoulder. It was right after I worked with Erin and she was explaining to me, if we feel better and then what we put out and then that touches someone else. And then I went on a trip and I saw this and it's hard to tell from far away, but they're teeny tiny dots. Like we're always affecting those around us. are we putting out there? So yes, Erin is the epicenter. And the reason we brought you on is because when I work with clients. even though I can work with anyone and I will, they're almost always women. And when I describe the type of work that I do, helping identify pain points in the house so that your house can run smoother, about 50 percent of the time, if not more, the response is, Oh, so you can deal with my family. And I always say, I'm not a therapist, but I value how you feel and I understand, and you're not alone. bringing you on, I thought that would be a really great opportunity to talk about when you're living with others, you can't control what other people do much as we want to, It's easy for tension to come up. Somebody wants something done a certain way. Somebody walks in feeling a way that doesn't line up with what needs to get done, right? We all walk in with our own stories and situations and then those often bump up against one another. And expectations, usually one person wants it a little bit more picked up than the other person. expectations aren't lining up. The values are different. So there tends to be that tension point. so when I say all of that, Erin, where does that take you in your thought process? where does that start to like tingle inside your brain?

Erin: 00:05:57

Yeah, I love how you said that when things start to bump up against each other, and I think that a lot of us would love to see the world change so that we feel better. there's the, if only they did something different or they behave differently, they should, they shouldn't do that so that I feel better. It really gives us no power. It gives us no place to own. where we're at and to move forward and feeling better just because we decide to. So what I'm learning in life and how I work with my clients is, let's say that they're never going to change. How do you now look at that differently so that you don't get, bristled every time that happens? Because if they're not going to change, the one that has to change is you. And it really does, to me, it comes down to the thoughts. I know we generally feel like it's our feelings that we feel, we feel aggravated or annoyed or angry or resentful. And if we pause and we go back, there's a thought that has now triggered that feeling. And so if we can come to that thought, and isolate that, then we have something to work with.

Sara: 00:07:11

So there's so many ways to go.

Lacey: 00:07:13

my initial reaction is like, but I want them to

Sara: 00:07:16

That was my first thought was people listening are gonna have that recoil of, but if they only took out the trash when I told them to. Right,

Erin: 00:07:27

so if we look at the reality. The reality is. The trash is not taken out, we disempower ourselves when we say, that should be and because it isn't, I don't feel good now. So Byron Katie, who is, an incredible teacher, she says, When we argue with reality, we lose, but only 100 percent of the time, right? So if the reality is the trash is not taken out, then it's our responsibility to look at our thoughts around that. And I know it's it's can be like nails on a chalkboard. but, we've said it 50 times, just do your job, just take out the trash, and if the reality is it's not done, if we give our power away and not feel good because the trash is not taken out, we're losing, we're, we're losing.

Sara: 00:08:12

I want to understand, so you come home, the trash isn't taken out, even though the task was assigned, you see the trash, and then you get angry, so you're disempowering yourself, because you're letting the trash then control your emotions. Is that what you're saying? Yep. everyone listening is like, yeah, I've already gone through 50 of these situations today. So then what's the, first step into this to somebody who has never tried to challenge That process of seeing something, getting upset, feeling upset, yelling, It's like the circular pattern that happens. So somebody is like, it doesn't feel good. I want it to change. Okay. I see the trash. What's the first step to not letting that cycle just happen.

Erin: 00:09:03

Yeah. Not get carried away with the emotion. I say that if we can become aware, Oh, I'm feeling angry. And it's the awareness of almost like the third person, Oh, look at you're getting angry at the trash and then just pausing and noticing that you're getting angry and it's okay. Not beating ourselves up, not judging ourselves for getting angry and then going to, okay, what is the thought process here? What's the thought that's triggering this? If you look at the neutral fact, the fact is that the trash is sitting there. The trash is not out. We're making it mean something that's causing anger. Somebody else might walk in and not be angry that the trash is sitting there. how we're taking that circumstance that is pretty neutral, we're making it mean something that's causing now a feeling. can we look at our thought? What's the thought behind it? I feel disrespected because nobody listened to me. I feel that I'm the only responsible one here. If we can get to that thought, that is what we can work with. Is it true that, that person, say it's my son, that my son disrespected me because he didn't do what I asked him to do? Is it true that he doesn't respect me because he didn't take the trash out? so then you start to challenge your thought process. You start to actually look at your thoughts because your thoughts are causing the feelings. And If you're not liking the angry feeling, and then the actions that follow, maybe it's, you're yelling, then you create separation, or you get passive aggressive, it's time to look at the thoughts causing that.

Lacey: 00:10:36

I've been doing a binge background watch of The Good Place in the past few weeks. It's such a beautiful show to have under the background as you like work because it's so joyful, but also thought provoking. And so I've been thinking about philosophy a lot. And one of the things that keeps coming up is this what do we owe each other part of it. And I definitely feel that personal responsibility of I can control my response But I think a bridge to like communicating to the person about what. we want from our house and what we owe each other, what those values and standards are, also still needs to happen, right?

Erin: 00:11:17

Absolutely. I am definitely not saying that you need to just suck it up and, take out the trash because it's not done. I also think that, going along with representing your thoughts, there is that Bridge as you eloquently put it into communication and can we communicate authentically Hey, my son's name is Caleb. Hey, Caleb. I noticed that I get really angry because the trash wasn't out. And I don't like to get angry so I'm going to just pause. And let's have a conversation about this. I had an expectation, you didn't do it. Can we talk about, is there a reason you didn't do the trash? But not making them bad or wrong. Not making me better or right in it. Just getting really curious of, why didn't the trash get out? Noticing I had an expectation. Noticing it wasn't meant. And then what that did to me. And then in that conversation, maybe he, I don't know, maybe broke his toe in the morning and he couldn't deal with it. Or maybe he had, something come up and he completely forgot. I think what happens is we have this instant feeling. We try to justify our anger or whatever emotion is coming up and we start to point fingers. It's your fault. This isn't done. Why isn't this done? You're bad and wrong. I'm right because I asked you. And now we have this big separation here. And so coming to it with authentic communication of, Hey, this is a little stinky. Do we want to live in a house that's getting stinky? Do we want to live and have that authentic, but also be curious of what they're going through and why they didn't go for it. I think that's, there's a lot of power in authentic communication.

Lacey: 00:13:01

I also think there's a lot of power in curiosity. I think people respond more to curiosity than to almost any other like approach. I think something as someone's listening to this, I just remind you that sometimes another person's reaction, may still be a little aggressive because that's the tone that they're used to. So don't just do this once. You have to keep trying. that's a thing that I know, between my husband and I, I'll, say something and I think it's very neutral but he still takes it into that aggressive place because that had been our communication for so long. so you just have to keep trying and enforcing it and not just trying once.

Erin: 00:13:43

Definitely a practice.

Sara: 00:13:44

as you were talking, I was writing down notes, and what I did was, on one side, it's that pattern. Trash, you have instant upsetness, Turns into anger and rage. And then that justification, why am I always doing everything? Why doesn't anyone help me write that very like black and white thinking. And it's, just the circular. And then I drew a line from the trash over to the side, instead of a circle of just observe. So it's like the first step is just that observing. And I remember one time me and you had a conversation and we were talking about that expression of a short fuse. And how the two, this is very simplified, but the parts of the brain, I always think of the lizard part of your brain, which is survival. And then the, what do you, what would you call the other part of your brain? The deep thought it's more the executive functioning, executive functioning. Okay. So in that short fuse is going to that survival You're just reacting like something didn't happen. Oh my gosh, just a little level 10 emergency. I'm so mad I feel threatened versus taking that deep breath and just observing it like you said which I think if I think that's just the first step That is almost the hardest is breaking that Am I going to go level 10, light things on fire? we've all been there. Like I throw everything in a dumpster and everyone can just go take care of themselves in the woods. I don't care. Or are you going to take a deep breath and just observe that rage versus acting on the, that's mindfulness, right? That's huge. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to understate that is that first step, because we're so used to reacting. Somebody cut me off. I'm mad. Somebody didn't start the dryer. I'm mad. it gets so ingrained in us. So to change that pattern, yeah, a lot of attention.

Erin: 00:15:44

It does. if we talk neuroscience just on the basics that I know, it's the, like you said, that pathway is very well worn. So if that is generally what you do and how you respond, it is, it's the trigger response effect. And I like to say that if we can put a gap in there, so there's trigger response, trash not out, I am pissed. then it kind of reactivates. It strengthens that pathway. That's what we do. We go right into amygdala. We're threatened. I'm going to react. And then if we can take that pause and notice, Oh, trash is not out. Oh, I'm feeling my body and different feelings cause different body sensations. So if you can start to even name, Oh, I'm angry. my, my jaw is clenched. my heart is beating. That will actually get you out of the reaction state. and will allow you to go into that longer response mode where it goes through the executive function and then you say, Oh, and that's where you start to practice. Oh, I'm, I wonder why it didn't happen. I'm curious what happened to this, to the scenario that I asked, to my request. that's where you get to get into the curiosity. There's no curiosity in that, fight, flight, freeze response. It's more like you said, it's that primal, I need to survive. Trash not being taken out is not a survival. However, we can react like it is. we can go into sympathetic, nervous system where our heart rate goes up, our breathing gets, erratic, our pupils dilate, muscles get fired up, ready to run or fight. And it's really being able to say, wow, okay, let me take a breath and now let me respond. It's so practice, as Lacey said, it's practice, practice with that.

Lacey: 00:17:44

I had a huge realization as you were just talking. So my son, we've been working on this. He has a lot of big feelings and big emotions and they take over him. And what I keep saying to him is. I just need you to stop. I don't care what you do like after that, but I just need you to focus on just stopping that moment that you start to feel that just focus on stopping. And I'm realizing that's great advice for anybody because I think sometimes we get so, and this is something we talk about a lot in home management of we get so bogged down with the later steps that we don't take that first step. So even if someone can just take the message of just stop in that moment, you have. done some change, right? You're paving that pathway to get to that next step. I think that's really just a great place to start for someone who gets into this cycle and pattern is if I can just stop, that is enough for today. I've pushed, I've made a difference, I've made a change and I can do more tomorrow or just again, stop and then figure out from there.

Sara: 00:18:52

Yeah. I like that. And again, to people listening, we're not saying this because we can say these words. We're not saying it's easy because I've gone through this. It has taken me years. I would find the space to not lose my shit. This is gonna be a swearing episode and I would at least have a second. so instead of losing my shit immediately, I would have a second, right? And then I would still lose my shit. And then it became five seconds and then it became I was able to walk out the door and basically have my little tantrum outside. So at least the energy wasn't in the house, I was just increasing that fuse like just a little bit, just a little bit. some days. I can see myself, I can get mindful, I can get curious, but I'll be honest. Those are the days when I'm well rested, when I don't feel overwhelmed or rushed. And so that brings me to my question, which is, I know it's not life or death, but I think in our day and age, I might be being dramatic. I don't know. I think it feels like life or death. I think, especially to women with the expectations. Working, having kids, maintaining the house, thinking our houses have to look a certain way, thinking our kids need to show up in society looking a certain way. I think that amount of pressure, actually feels legitimately like survival. Tell me what you two ladies think of that.

Erin: 00:20:23

What stuck out for me is the word pressure that you just said. And I agree with you. I think we put a lot as moms, as women, as, CEOs of our home, as career people, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to show up certain ways. I think what's been helpful for me is to be able to notice where I put that pressure on and really start to question. Is that real? Do I need to actually do that? What happens if I don't? What happens if this doesn't happen? And that has allowed me, and like you said, over the years it's been quite a practice. It's allowed me to release, it's almost like if a, If an inner tube is so blown up, it's about to pop, right? You start to release the pressure on it with that valve. It starts to get more manageable, more pliable, softer. And so that's how I've been starting to look at things of, am I really, do I really need to do this? Does this really matter at this moment? And if that can release the pressure off myself, then things just become softer for me.

Sara: 00:21:29

that makes me think of our last episode, Lacey and I did, we went deep into the good, better, best mindset. And I related a story about when my son was little and it was very challenging for several reasons outside of my control. And what I did was after a certain amount of time, I was like, if I'm going to live, I have to claim survival days. And so in the good, better, best scenario, good enough is each of us eat some food, maybe some clean clothes, maybe one of us gets a bath, and I said, that's all I have to do today. That's it. And once I adjusted to a survival day, that pressure melted away. I wasn't worried about the grocery list. I wasn't worried about making a meal or opening the mail or doing the laundry. I just removed all of that from my mental plate and it just created space. For things to be easier. I like that example of the inner tube and if you hit one thing wrong, it just goes off. And that makes me think too about kids. It's I think what's really a powerful tool and equally scary is when we start to see our kids react. The way we react to things.

Lacey: 00:22:47

Yes.

Sara: 00:22:49

They hear

Lacey: 00:22:49

their little voices say something, you're like, Oh, I know that was me. I can hear it.

Sara: 00:22:54

Right. And you realize, going back to the top of this conversation, if we learned these fundamental things when we were little kids. about stopping, observing, taking a breath, being curious, right? Like how different the world would be if we grew up with that. another tool, another thing that I wrote down, about when you were talking about being curious a tool that I use sometimes in my head is kind of a joke what was that show from like the 60s it was black and white dragnet maybe it was just the facts ma'am do you remember that Because these police officers would show up and there's usually a lot of emotions and people are starting to say things and they're telling this big elaborate whatever and the cop would always say just the facts. So I thought about that's a good tool to maybe use. Is sometimes to just be like, okay, what are just the facts? imagine you're showing up to a scene and there is no backstory. It's what are just the facts in this situation?

Erin: 00:23:56

that goes back to if somebody else walked into your house and they saw the trash, they likely would not have the same reaction. They're looking at the same fact. The fact is the trash is maybe it's overflowing. There's a fact, right? A fact is anything that a camera would be able to record. And then everybody looking at that is going to have their own story, create their own meaning around that fact. And I think that's where we get into, mom comes home, sees the trash, that's the story, kid sees the trash, but doesn't actually care about the trash, that's their story. And so having us trying to be on the same story my brother and I, both of our children are older and they're living together right now. and they're working a lot and he just called me and he just said, I have to vent this house. And he just went off on the house and how he can see things that they can't, he says, you need to do this and they're like, we did that. and to him, it's not done the way he expected it to be, but in their minds, it's good. They did it. It's perfect, right? So it's all how we interpret that fact, if that makes sense.

Sara: 00:25:07

That it does make sense. And that goes back to that conversation Lacey and I had about good, better, best. And she was saying it was a great conversation tool to have with your partner because you start to realize, Oh my, what they think is best is actually only my good enough. And it's like that whole thing of Oh, the trash was taken out. yeah, but you only set it out in the back door. It's out of the house, but it's not in the trash bin. And it's yeah, that again, getting really clear on what the expectation is. Now, something else I want to go back to that. I thought about, what if going back to the mom, the overworked, tired mom, managing the house, what about getting fatigued of being curious and having these conversations? What do you say to the woman who says, yes, I tried that. And I'm tired. I'm tired of being the only one who notices, who gets curious, who has the conversation, who does the prompts. I'm just tired. how do you deal with it from that point?

Erin: 00:26:12

Well, if we're talking about kind of the thread of the thoughts here, I think it goes back to that. What are the thoughts? Nobody's listening to me. They should. They shouldn't. They disrespect me. I am tired of doing this. That's going to set you up for a feeling. And generally that feeling is not going to feel really good. And if you want to keep not feeling good, then you don't challenge any of this. You just keep going on, but generally as moms, we want to feel good. We want to be able to show up. We want to be that role model. We want to be able to hold a container for everyone as we like to do. My experience is, I'll say this, my children are out of the house. My children are grown. I don't have littles anymore running around. And I know that when I did, it's a whirlwind. Your thoughts are constantly on everyone and everything. it's much more challenging at that time to be able to look at the thought process. I do think that being able to take that breath, like everything we just talked about, being able to take the breath, looking at what pressures you're putting on yourself, having that authentic communication with your family about how you're feeling, getting curious about what other people are feeling. bringing it in as a cohesive team. How can we work together so that we're all feeling better about this and being able to challenge the thought of this should be done because I asked for it. But the reality is it's not done. I think Byron Katie has something in her book that says, she was so tired of asking people to pick up their socks. and that they weren't picking up their socks, that she finally said, if this is actually bothering me and only me, I'm the one that needs to take care of this. Because if it's not bothering anybody else, my thought is they should be doing it, but they're not, then I'm the one that's going to do it, or I'm not going to be bothered by it.

Sara: 00:28:14

I'm sitting with that because that is such a different narrative than we hear usually. I think I mentioned on one of our episodes about a mom in our community who's got five kids, both the parents work, they're always going in different directions. And I was asking her how she got certain things in the house done. And at a certain point, she's like, you know. Things aren't perfect. There's usually dirty dishes. There's usually piles of laundry. people just sleep wherever they sleep. There's not a lot of rules and order in our house. And she goes, and if I ever get really stressed out or upset over something, I realized I'm the only one who's upset and stressed out. And it was such a level of just pure surrender. is it Buddhism that, non attachment? there was such this just level of zero attachment to the way anything looked. And I was like, wow, there's a lot of power and peace in this.

Lacey: 00:29:15

I was picturing myself as that mom, who's so frustrated. I'm tired of telling people to do this and this. And I read recently, treat yourself like a plant. And so in that moment, I would love for that mom to be like, okay, hold on. I'm a plant. Am I fed, watered? Have I gotten sunshine? And that's just a formula of maybe I just need to get a glass of water. Like I can't control what's happening here. I'm going to get a glass of water and then I'll come back.

Erin: 00:29:41

I love how you said that I can't control what's happening here. I can't control other people. What I can control is I can water myself, I can get sunshine, I can get rest, I can take a deep breath, I can look at my thoughts. So yes, there is being able to surrender to the reality of what's actually there in front of you and then being able to take care of yourself. I think that's a really good point.

Lacey: 00:30:04

I also think that women in general, obviously, when we've said this many times, have a hard time putting their needs as part of the whole equation. And I think taking the judgment away of I'm a mom, to just be like, hey, I'm a plant. What does a plant need? there's this element of one, playfulness, but also detaching the judgment of objectively, these are the things that I need. What am I not having in this moment as well? So I think that's important too.

Sara: 00:30:38

And I want to highlight, as we're having this conversation, I'm remembering it's also a stage in a phase of life. Erin, you commented, your kids aren't little anymore, but you know that whirlwind feeling, right? And how all of these pressures change as our kids are at different ages, as our responsibilities in life change, right? And one of our participants from the previous season, Miss Tyra, her boys were grown and gone, and she had a completely different set of, Time of things she had to deal with like she was no longer driving her kids around all over town to different activities and so it's there's also I think a moment of remembering these chapters all change it's like this now doesn't mean like it's gonna be like this Always. And I think we get lost in that and forget to zoom out and see that overall picture of this moment is not forever.

Lacey: 00:31:41

as a mom of very small children, I always need to hear that. I'm so tired all the time for so many reasons.

Sara: 00:31:49

I said that to the mom's group I was just with last month because all their kids were five and under. we all went around and said what we were thankful for that day. And I said, I was coming here. I just packed my bags. I got my stuff ready. And I just looked at my family and said, take care of yourself. Be good. And I walked out the door and I told them, I was like, there will be a day where you don't have to worry. Is the bottle made? Is, are there clean clothes laid out? all those things. And I was like, there's hope. One day you can walk away and just know they can take care of themselves. this, again, there are just so many different ways we could go with this conversation. but I think the biggest takeaway for anyone listening is that circle I was talking about, that ingrained pattern we have of what is it reacting versus responding. Is that the difference? So reacting into Anger without thinking versus taking a beat and choosing your response instead of letting it just overcome and flood you. I think that's the one step where it all starts. And that would be the way and

Erin: 00:33:06

giving yourself the grace of practicing that, we're gonna mess up, we're gonna explode, we're going to criticize and judge, we're going to blame point fingers, we're going to get angry. And that's okay. We're humans to be able to just take a breath right after that.

Sara: 00:33:20

and even just. Even if you can just shift, okay, the feelings flood you, can you just shift where it's coming out? instead of yelling it at somebody, could you yell it into a voice memo in your car? Dance it out? Could you dance? Wiggle it out of your arms? Interpretive dance? could you call up a friend and say it? Just, can you just listen to me? or just write it down in your journal and just at least change that it's not directed at somebody. I think about how I used to drive in, DC traffic and I had a little bit of road rage reaction and I used to flip people off all the time. And I was like, you know what? This is dangerous. Cause there's something to be some like situations where people are getting hurt. So I was like, okay, I can still flip them off. I just have to do it below the window. So they can't see me. like, okay, get mad, but maybe just change. Can you do it below the window so nobody can see? And that can be your first step forward. Erin, is there anything else that you wanted to share or any last thoughts that you wanted to share?

Erin: 00:34:23

to follow up with what you just said about if you can change even the smallest step in what you normally do, any change is brain change. So you starting to alter that pathway a little bit in a new direction, that is change. and the reminder that this is, as we zoom out, this is a very small period of time. and I also like the, to come back to the releasing the pressure on ourselves.

Sara: 00:34:51

Yeah. Yes, releasing the pressure. I was just writing that down because I like to remind myself to. Any

Lacey: 00:34:57

changes, brain change is going to be sticking with me like that for some reason really hit.

Sara: 00:35:02

yeah. and one final thought on that. I also like the thought of Erin, I think you called it pre paving, where you rehearse in your mind something. if you're used to getting mad in your house at something not happening, close your eyes and practice. What would a different version of that look like practice it in your brain so that next time it happens, you can actually go to, instead of going down option path A, you can go down path B because you've practiced it in your mind. I've definitely worked on that one as well.

Erin: 00:35:37

Yeah. Really good point.

Sara: 00:35:38

Well, thank you so much, Erin, for your time and for the work that you're doing and that joy ripple that you're putting out there. it really is powerful and appreciated.

Erin: 00:35:49

And thank you both, Sarah and Lacey for all that you're doing to support, moms and women and homes and the ripple you're sending out. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you.