Your Best Self with Zac Owens

Welcome to sharing the middle, or we share the stories

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of the messy middles of our lives.

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I'm Lacey, your friend

in the middle lane guide.

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Who's claim to fame this week is getting

her son off to his first week of school.

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. I'm really excited about today's

episode because we are talking

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to my dear friend, Zac Owens.

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continuing telling my

story through conversation.

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With people in my life.

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I almost instantly thought of Zac because

Zac always makes me feel like the best

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version of myself, the most interesting.

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Just best Lacy, then I can be.

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And so wanted to learn more

about what it is about Zack.

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And me, I don't know.

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Just learn more.

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What, what that is.

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And I think.

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You'll see, in this

episode that Zac is magic.

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and he has a lot of really thoughtful.

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pieces of advice and wisdom for us to be

this person for other people in our lives.

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Let's jump right in.

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Welcome Zac.

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I'm so excited to talk

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Zac: am so excited to with you.

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Lacey: Zac and I met

in, grad school for me.

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He was an adjunct instructor and

we have been around each other.

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we knew each other, but, that's

when we really became close.

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As soon as I was thinking about this

concept of what I'm doing with, sharing

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the middle of, exploring different

parts of myself, through conversations,

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I almost instantly thought of Zac.

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And the fact that talking with Zac makes

feel like the best version of myself.

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Zac: That's such a high compliment.

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Lacey: I'm glad that

it's a high compliment.

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it feels a little selfish.

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Let's talk about why you make me feel

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great.

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But I do think it's interesting of what

is it about our relationship or how we

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interact that really does bring out what

I think is one of the best sides of me.

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Zac: I think, Lacey in general,

I love people and I love

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finding out all of the interesting

things about people, the things

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that aren't on the screen.

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Surface, right?

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The things that aren't like, that you lead

with or whatever, your accolades and wins

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It's all the little, nuances or

quirks people who lead with that

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are the most interesting to me.

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also people who take their ordinary

lived experience and make it into.

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rich wisdom for the rest of

us, that needs to be shared.

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I think a lot of who you are, are

those things you embrace all of

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those wonderful quirks and those

wonderful weirdnesses of life.

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And you, take what's

going on in your life.

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And I love that's what you're doing

with everything you're doing with the

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podcast, the joyful support movement.

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it warms my heart because it's

all of the great things of Lacey

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making the world a better place.

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I love it.

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It's wonderful.

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Lacey: appreciate that so much.

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I, so I've been getting really

into tarot and all this woo stuff.

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one of the things I keep finding

is that my impact on the world is

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supposed to be me coming in, learning

by doing and trying, and then sharing

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that experience with the world.

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that is what I'm here to do.

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So you saying all that, I'm like,

Which is another place where

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that is the message that I get.

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Zac: Yeah.

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for those of us who are long time

fans, long time listening, you

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know, , it's, it's just so fun to

see you take what could be a really

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downer of a situation or a real downer

of a season and say, I have agency.

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I'm going to make it into something that

I can be joyful about and that other

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people can, take something from as well.

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And that's really, the sweet spot.

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that's it.

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Lacey: Thanks, man.

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That feels nice.

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but I do want to put it back on

you a little bit of what you do.

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Zac is so good about saying, Out loud when

he finds something interesting or funny

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or engaging, and he is not afraid to bring

it up and talk about it and celebrate it.

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And I think that's something that we

just don't see a lot in people's lives.

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Like they're too, I don't know if they're

too afraid to share those pieces of

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themselves or like that they're going to,

I don't know, offend somebody, but you are

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so good about bringing those things out.

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And it always makes

everyone around you feel.

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Amazing.

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Zac: thank you.

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Yeah, I like, if I stumble upon

something, I want to talk about it.

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Like I said, we have a good chat, bring

people in and the world is too heavy.

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sometimes you need a little levity.

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Or something thought provoking

that will leave people thinking.

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always start the conversation.

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. Lacey: Did you, have you always been

like that or was there something

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that made you be like that?

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Zac: I don't know.

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I think I have always been the kind

of person who tries to keep like a

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question or a topic in their back

pocket, cause you never know when

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you're going to need it kind of thing.

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I'm an avid reader, I'm a scroller on

TikTok or on Instagram, so if I see

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something interesting, I'm gonna bookmark

that and think about it, after the fact,

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and if it comes up in conversation,

it's gonna come up, yeah, I guess that's

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just always been a part of my life.

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My personality a little bit.

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Lacey: I got this image and this is not

you, I want to say, like the people who

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are like, this is an article I read and

this is going to be the conversation

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that I'm going to start with everybody.

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And so you're not like that.

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It feels so So to hear you

say, I have ideas in my back

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pocket that genuinely surprises

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Zac: Yeah.

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And, but it's not to be fair.

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I don't think it as is as

planned as it sounds, as I'm

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saying it out loud right now,

but for example, like my latest

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fascination is this lobster

fishermen in Maine, and he just like.

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Fishes for lobsters and talks to you about

like the difference between this one and

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this one and why you have to put this

One back and why you can keep this one.

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It's fascinating and he gives him

a little snack before he releases

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them back into the wild It's great.

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It's just great

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Lacey: Oh my God.

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I want to know so much more about

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Zac: and it's just like I think

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about those are the kind of like I'll

never live that life and so I want to

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just embrace everything about his life

because it's great and he's having

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fun and having a lot of joy doing it.

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So

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Lacey: There are so many things

that are just these little bits

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that you find so funny and so

interesting that I just am like, okay.

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Zac: Yep.

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100%.

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I actually, I went back and I looked

at like the original Lacey a hundred

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things that Make Me Happy List.

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I went back and

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listened to your episode of my podcast

that I did so many years ago, and it's

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just so interesting to see how some

of those things change and how some

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of those things stay exactly the same.

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Lacey: I do think it's interesting.

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And I actually think about this a

lot is one of the things we talked

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about when I was on your podcast.

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And I also want to say I was on Zac's

podcast, when I was pregnant with

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Isaac, so pregnant with my first child.

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And it's just so interesting.

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to see the span of time and that

kind of stuff, how things have

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changed, but also not changed.

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And one thing that you and I talked

about is how I don't feel a need,

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I don't remember exactly how it was

said, to feel a big life or have

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a big life or do all these things.

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And it's, I've been thinking about that

a lot lately because right now I'm in

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this place of I'll be as big as I want.

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I'm not gonna, censor myself

and that kind of stuff.

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But I still feel very the same

about what you and I talked about

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of I'm doing this because it feels

right for me, not for anybody else.

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and I don't know.

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If that even makes

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Zac: Yeah, it does.

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And I think, What you're

doing with the joyful support

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movement, everything about joy.

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I think we, we tend to align that with

happiness and certainly we want to

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be happy, but happiness can be such a

fleeting thing, but what joy is really

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rooted in is a choice for contentment.

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And I think that's something you

have just always found is just you

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know what the ordinary, the like, I

like it kind of right here, you know,

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kind of even keel, like that's it.

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And you're just very content with being.

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At whatever level you choose to be at

right and I think when you do that you

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don't strive as much anymore It's a lot.

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It's freeing is what it is

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Lacey: Oh, Zac, you just had this like

aha moment in me because I have been

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struggling a bit with perceived success

or I sometimes get lost in the numbers.

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So to hear you say back to me, you are

content by choice really gives my brain

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permission to be like, yeah, and you

don't have to worry about those numbers.

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You don't have to worry

about those things.

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You do it in these other

parts of your life.

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Why wouldn't you apply that over here?

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I'm going to be thinking

about this all day now.

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You don't understand.

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Zac: And I think we forget sometimes

that we define success we define the

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metrics, and you got to be careful I

remember that was some really good advice

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that I got Actually in grad school.

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You have to be careful who you give

permission To tell you who you are, right?

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And a lot of times we give people

or whatever other entity this They,

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we let them decide the metric and we

get to decide, an author I follow.

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He talks about having a reading goal

and he's I want to read 20 books.

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And it's 10 of them can be comic books.

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And then somebody goes like,

well, those aren't really books.

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Who are you to say, I get

to decide what a book is.

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And so there you go.

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and that's totally revolutionized

how I think about goal setting,

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how I think about, Even just my

own expectations of myself, right?

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Like you get to choose.

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.

Lacey: What you're talking about is one of the kind of underlying

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principles of the joyful support

movement of you get to define what

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joy looks like for you, it's not going

to be the same as other people and.

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It doesn't matter what you should be happy

about or should find joy in and that you

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just need to embrace that for yourself.

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in so many different ways.

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I was on threads yesterday and

someone posted like people who wash

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your, their laundry and dry it and

then don't put it away right away.

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Do you go and get groceries and

then leave them in your trunk?

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And I'm like, first of all.

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Calm down.

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Okay.

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Calm down.

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Second of all, and if I do, what, I mean,

obviously we're going to be worried about

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foodborne illness at a certain point.

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But, I just, they're like, of course,

I love to go in a comment section and

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I love to see the discourse happening

and like where it seems like people

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are aligning and that kind of stuff.

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And they got the appropriate

amount of pushback in my opinion.

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But in one of the other comments,

they're like, I hate half done tasks.

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And I'm like, then you have

a different task list than

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me because washing's a task.

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Drying's a task.

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Folding's a task.

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I have to separate them

out into different tasks.

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I can't just have laundry as a task

or I will never do it because it is.

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daunting.

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And so I just, it's so interesting to

me, especially with doing joyful support

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movement and no shame in the home game

with my partner, Sarah, this idea of,

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These like stupid shoulds and expectations

about how we should be doing things.

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And they're so dumb,

they're so dumb and made up.

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And I just can't, yeah,

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Zac: And where does that all come from?

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Like we let that seep in some of us.

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It's the

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fishbowl we lived in.

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And that's just how we

thought it should always be.

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And deconstructing those

shoulds, that's a good one.

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Lacey: shoulds.

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I am drinking out of my stop shoulding

all over yourself mug that I've made for

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Zac: Good for you.

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Good for you.

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Lacey: so very much on my mind all the

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time, especially with chronic

illness, because my shoulds

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are completely different.

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So I, I found out a couple of days ago

that I am very unexpectedly pregnant.

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Lacey has an IUD pregnant and the IUD

is now missing, like it's a whole thing.

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and I keep coming back to this.

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Sorry, you

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Zac: I, I was, I'm like, congratulations.

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Number one,

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Lacey: Thanks.

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Zac: wow.

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Lacey: Zac knows how

much I like certainty.

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And one of the things I've been really

working on is letting go of certainty

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and embracing whatever's coming.

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And it is so funny because this process.

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Is the biggest exercise of Lacey,

stop trying to control and embrace

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the uncertainty because, and this is

another thing that I've noticed as

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like a theme in my life of I've done

all the things that I'm supposed to.

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And I am living a lovely, wonderful life.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't,

but I also like still get the

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outcomes of what I don't want.

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and I think an unplanned pregnancy, is

like the biggest example of that, like I

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did what I was supposed to, I got the most

sure form of birth control in my life.

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And I still got pregnant.

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And then I was like, it's okay.

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If they get the IUD out,

everything will be fine.

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They couldn't get the IUD out.

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So it's still it just like any

marker I set for myself of now

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everything will be okay is gone.

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And it's been this like

giant, oh shit type thing

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Zac: WHAT THE

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Lacey: And it's challenged a lot of

these things that I've told myself

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that I'm learning and working on.

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And whoo, am I working on this?

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Zac: Yeah, man.

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isn't it funny how if you want to

grow and learn in something, sometimes

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life, the universe, whatever, is just

going to give you those opportunities.

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Lacey: and it's, it is funny cause I do,

I have started thinking of it more as

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the universe and I are on the same page.

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It has given me this opportunity

and then punched me in the face when

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I tried to for not learn from it.

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that I just need to relax and Tango is

coming and I can't control it all and I

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can't, and so I do feel like this is one

of the biggest signs in my life of I am

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in tune with the universe because I'm

like, yeah, I get the effing message.

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Okay.

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Thank you.

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Zac: Oh

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Lacey: I'm, I actually, Joe and I

wanted another child, but it felt

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irresponsible because of my illness.

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So all these different things.

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So it also feels like the universe is

got you girl, get out of jail free card.

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You don't have to feel guilty

about making these choices.

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So there's a little bit of that

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too.

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But I think it's, yeah.

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Yeah, there's just a lot there, but, and

I also, I can't be quiet about anything.

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So yesterday Joe and I were coming

home from the, from the doctor

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and I was like, so we both know.

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I'm a loose cannon, so I'm

gonna say something publicly

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way sooner than I should.

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And he was like, let's just make

sure my family finds out and

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then you do whatever you want.

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I'm like, okay,

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Zac: Oh my gosh, Joe, the episode

of you and Joe on, no shame in

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the home game had me rolling.

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I was laughing so hard.

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You guys are hilarious together.

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I need a Lacey Joe, like spinoff

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podcast.

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Lacey: it is funny.

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Cause we've talked about doing

a check in with Lacey and Joe.

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And I actually think this could

actually be a really interesting point

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to check in because like we've moved

and then like now we're having another

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like world blowing up situation.

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Zac: My favorite part was

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like, how many times, is that a child?

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Is there a child in that episode?

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Lacey: you always gotta

be on the watch out.

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they are

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Zac: They're sneaky.

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They're sneaky.

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Lacey: they're sneaky.

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They are really sneaky.

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And they're getting

sneakier in different ways.

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So like Isaac has started,

this is just really funny.

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Cause you, I think you'll appreciate it.

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He started figuring out that, like

how to proactively mess with someone.

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So sometimes he'll get mad at me

or Joe or Iris and then he hides

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something he knows we'll want at some

point and then we can't find it and

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it's like we get to a breaking point

and he's oh I think I know where it

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is and then he goes and Finds it right

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away.

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Zac: being helpful.

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I love it.

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Lacey: is so funny.

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It's always things that I'm like,

how did you know that was something

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I was going to want and need and

be desperately searching for.

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one of the things was Iris's tablet

and it was purely out of spite to

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her, but I'm like, she's not the one

that's going to feel it, Joe and I are.

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So stop it.

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Zac: Cut it out, kid.

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Lacey: There was something

else that he did too.

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And I watched him.

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When he quote unquote found it, he

like moved a box out of the way.

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And he was like, Oh, there it is.

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It's

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Zac: Oh, check this out.

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Lacey: amazing that if you

just know exactly which box

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to move, it's right behind it.

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Oh, so yeah.

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Whereas Iris is more sneaky that

she has malicious compliance where

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you will set a boundary and she

will follow it to the letter.

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We were at my parents house this

weekend and my mom said, you can't

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have food in The family room, you

have to be, I remember the exact

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words that she used, but you have to

be, at least sitting in the kitchen.

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and she, cause they're, it's

like a step down into their

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living room from the kitchen.

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And she sat with just the

tiniest bit of her butt on the

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step down into the living room.

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And my mom was like, I guess

she's following the rules.

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No.

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Zac: Malicious compliance.

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I love that.

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And we also love Carolyn.

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I love it.

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Lacey: if there's one thing of this.

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Podcasts in any podcast.

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It's like Carolyn is the MVP of my life.

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Zac: She's a gem.

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She's a pure

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gem.

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Lacey: she is, away from

telling stories about my kids.

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I lost my track of thought.

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That happens a lot now.

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Oh, the other thing that you do,

and I'm curious if you do this with

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everyone, you're always like, Oh,

I was telling someone about this

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thing that you, that brought me joy.

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And I'm like, are you just Share, I

just, I don't think I'm interesting

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enough for that, but then you'll be like,

oh no, and I'm like, is it just your

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storytelling that makes it interesting?

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I

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Zac: know, man.

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I think

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Lacey: Oh,

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Zac: I love, so one of my things that I

absolutely love, it's actually on my list

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of a hundred things that make me happy

is introducing my friends to my friends.

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And so when they get to

become friends, that's great.

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And so I think some of that is the same.

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baseline that when it comes to, sharing,

Oh my gosh, I was talking to this person

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about this thing, and bringing that

connection in together a little bit.

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but you just have interesting stories too.

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You know what I mean?

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And I do want to preface it like, you do

have to be careful, like what's yours to

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share and what's not yours to share.

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So I tried it, but , Like, you know?

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Lacey: I will say you've

never shared anything that

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I'm like, that's not yours to

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share.

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It's always like these, again,

silly little anecdotes from

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my life.

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Zac: yes, absolutely.

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It's all of those things.

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actually it was so funny, because

there's this cat that hangs outside my

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house right now, and I'm like, oh man.

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My first thought was like,

what am I gonna call it?

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And my, it crossed my mind, the Steve Katz

that Joe and Lacey used to have back in

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the day, which is its own story, friends.

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But it, but that's those

stories that you tell.

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They stick and I just want to

tell everybody else about them

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too because they're just so funny.

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They're just so funny.

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Lacey: Oh, and it's so funny.

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Sometimes you'll, you remind me of things.

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I'm like, Oh yeah, that's a thing.

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Okay.

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Cause I did, I revisited and if anybody

wants to hear that, they can revisit

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my episode of Zac, I put it on a

playlist of different podcasts of mine.

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and, but I.

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my husband before we were married,

lived with a place that had a bunch

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of random cats and they were all

a variation of the name Steve.

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which, so the new Steve in our

house, by the way, is Jellybean.

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So there was a dog who lived down the

street in our old house, and he was

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like, when I say the quintessential

golden retriever, like just anytime

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we would see him, he was like, ably.

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not disobedient, but like just

too excited to pay attention.

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And his name was Jellybean.

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And so we naturally, we talk

about Jellybean all the time.

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it has become Isaac's default

name now for things too.

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So one of his stuffs,

animals jelly is Jellybean.

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So now I'm like, I guess if we ever

get another dog, it is going to be

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Jellybean.

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There's no way that it can't be Jellybean.

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I love that you are a man of many

passions and you Pursue them at your will.

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yeah, I just think that's really cool.

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I've always loved that about

you of Oh, Zac's working on

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this right now, or, that kind of

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Zac: I do tend to like hodgepodge,

my careers, or whatever.

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I don't know.

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I think I got to a point where I

started thinking, going back to

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the, what we just talked about

with expectations and success.

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I just, I don't know if

a career is for everyone.

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And so I started really breaking that

down because all my life was like,

431

Oh, you have to choose your path.

432

You have to have this career,

you have to have this thing.

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And I'm like, maybe it's.

434

Good for some people

but not for everybody.

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Maybe I can just Kind of piece together

the things I want to do or the things that

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I feel like fit me for that season And as

long as I'm doing something that I feel

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like contributing to society in some way

and helping me pay my bills Then cool, and

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you know also got to a point to where I

realized that your career is your career

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But your passion is your passion and it's

great if they overlap, but they certainly

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don't have to be one in the same you can

work a 40 hour week job that is tolerable,

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and I say that in a positive connotation.

442

it pays the bills, and

you can stomach it, great.

443

And if that allows you and funds

you to do the passionate thing,

444

great, that might be the sweet spot.

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Lacey: I think that's something

that our generation was.

446

I don't want to say filled with,

like this idea that your job becomes

447

your identifying feature and that

you should love what you're doing and

448

that you should love it so much that

you want to do it all the time and

449

it is the main focus of your life.

450

And I think in the past four or five

years, really since the pandemic,

451

there's been this pushback of This

doesn't have to be my entire life.

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What in what world does this

have to be my entire life?

453

And I think.

454

That is beautiful.

455

Really.

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really beautiful.

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I'm not a good example of

that, so don't look at me,

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but I love it when other people do.

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Zac: I love that, too.

460

I love that you love

when other people do it.

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Lacey: I do.

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I do.

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I want it for anybody who wants it.

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I just, I hate the idea of feeling

like you have to do things a

465

certain way that just really has

started to stick in my crawl.

466

What, did I just become like a

Southern person there for a second?

467

Stuck in my crawl.

468

I was born in West Virginia.

469

So I did have a Southern accent

for the first three years of

470

Zac: Oh, my gosh.

471

Thank

472

I feel like that's

473

new information for me about Lacey.

474

I don't know if

475

I knew

476

Lacey: it?

477

Yeah.

478

The other funny thing is when we go

on our family vacation every year.

479

We passed the hospital

I was born in everyone.

480

Everyone in my family.

481

That's where Lacey was born and it

has started to drive Joe bananas.

482

He's yeah,

483

I know.

484

So now I lean into it more naturally.

485

I'm like, Hey, Isaac, guess what?

486

Did you know?

487

That's where mommy was born.

488

No.

489

Oh, that's where I was born.

490

Isn't that important?

491

And this time we, I literally

was like, Hey, I plan for us to

492

do a stop right near where I was

born so we could really soak it.

493

I was born here.

494

Zac: You need to get out and take

like photos at the hospital with

495

a sign that said, I was born here.

496

Lacey: I know my siblings I'll do it too.

497

So I think their kids

are like, Oh, we know,

498

Zac: Have you seen that trend right now?

499

I think it's like the siblings or

like best friends and they like,

500

it's all the things that they say

in their family and they play it

501

like the game headbands or whatever.

502

I feel like listening to you talk with

your sisters and your family, I'm like,

503

they would have so much fun with this.

504

So I'm petitioning for you guys to do that

and make it one of your reels, please.

505

Lacey: I'll see.

506

And this is one of those things where

it took me a long time to realize the

507

things that aren't just everybody.

508

deviled egg story.

509

And so I need someone like you

to come in and be like, no.

510

That's actually really funny to

be like, not everybody does that.

511

every once in a while, I get a good one

from Joe where he's that's not a thing.

512

I'm like, yeah, it is.

513

Nope.

514

It's not.

515

But I do love the moments that

I get to say it back to him.

516

I'm like, nope,

517

Zac: that's not a thing.

518

Lacey: like there was one time where we

were driving with my parents somewhere

519

and my mom and dad and I are talking

about our passing out stories and just

520

out of nowhere, just like, I need you

guys to know that this is not normal.

521

Oh, it's not.

522

Okay.

523

Thanks for letting me know.

524

Zac: I don't think I

have a passing out story.

525

So yeah, that, and that is very

just interesting that you just

526

swap those stories.

527

Lacey: two, in cafeterias alone, you know?

528

Zac: I'm sorry, I'm sure, I hope you

were okay, but just that fact about I

529

passed out in two cafeterias in my life,

Your list of possibilities for the two

530

truths in a lie game have to be endless.

531

Lacey: guess I just

don't think of them that

532

Zac: No one thinks of them in

the moment, but maybe that's,

533

Lacey: I know.

534

It's so hard.

535

Zac: got to keep a spreadsheet I guess,

536

Lacey: something else that I

didn't realize was so interesting

537

was at my bachelorette party.

538

I lip synced to Backstreet Boys

and my, and got rug burns from it.

539

And Sarah, my, my business

partner was like, that's.

540

I'm like, is it?

541

Zac: She went

542

hard.

543

Lacey: I did, but I also don't

think anyone who knows me.

544

Would be, would think that's weird.

545

like you and I had a lip sync battle

at my wedding to NSYNC's Bye Bye.

546

Bye.

547

I don't

548

Zac: I don't believe I walked away with

that, from that with rug burns, but,

549

I didn't go as hard, so.

550

it was serious.

551

Such a good time.

552

Your wedding was a blast.

553

Lacey: I think so too.

554

any lingering thoughts about

bringing out the best in someone?

555

Advice?

556

Wisdom?

557

I don't know.

558

Zac: I think You know, man, everybody

just needs to be built up, there's

559

so much working against people

to tear them down or to make them

560

feel like the weight of the world.

561

It's just a heavy place.

562

as many opportunities That arise where you

can call out the light in somebody or call

563

out the light in the world And I think

that's why I love working in coffee so

564

much because literally you make people's

day Constantly by giving them a coffee.

565

It is it for some of them.

566

It really is that dose of Joy in the

morning or, that afternoon pick me

567

up and you can just chat like during

the pandemic when life was just heavy

568

and hard, people wanted to connect.

569

So they would still come

in and they would chat.

570

Was a really bright spot for me.

571

in a really dark time.

572

I think that's it.

573

Just try to always find the light

in the moment, in the situation,

574

in the person, and call it out.

575

Don't hold it in.

576

You just don't want to miss those

opportunities to say something.

577

and regret it later.

578

I think, a friend of mine actually

just went through this where

579

they lost a friend close to them

that they hadn't seen in a while.

580

And it was like, and they had said, Oh

yeah, I really need to reach out to them.

581

And they just didn't take that

opportunity, every once in a while.

582

If somebody comes across my mind,

I'm just, if I have their number,

583

I'm going to shoot them a text.

584

If they're on my, Social media

platform whatever I'm gonna message

585

them and just hey, I was just thinking

about you or hey Do you remember

586

that time when this happened or

whatever and just Or sharing a reel.

587

I'll share the lobster fisherman

with people because he's just great.

588

Lacey: you share him with me?

589

I am so fascinated.

590

I might just go Google lobster fisherman

591

Zac: it's my favorite deep dive

right now and it just it's so funny

592

people want to talk about your

phones listening to you and the

593

algorithms and all that kind of stuff.

594

But

595

sometimes I'm like, appreciative because

it's taken me down a new rabbit hole now

596

where I'm learning about people who like

catch tuna and Slice them up and whatever.

597

And it's an art and tuna are big fish.

598

They're not small.

599

I think I was confusing tuna and sardines.

600

And so when I saw this, I'm like, this

thing is massive and the way they go

601

Lacey: Is that tuna?

602

Okay.

603

Zac: but they just go in and

they like, I have to, it's like

604

watching a samurai fillet a fish.

605

It's really insane, but yeah,

606

it's just fascinating.

607

Lacey: I had a similar thing with,

dairy farmers and I went down

608

this rabbit hole of like how they

can use AI and automations to

609

like make the cows lives better.

610

And I'm like, Now I know what

I would do in a different life.

611

I would go be a dairy farmer and

like just hang out with the cows,

612

make sure they're doing okay.

613

And all this different stuff.

614

Zac: And you, I love that because

you've mentioned this, I think on

615

the podcast before that you love

technology, especially when it makes.

616

Your life even just the slightest

bit more easy or convenient, right?

617

And so I can

618

totally see you doing that

and just be like hey cow.

619

I got something that's gonna make

your life amazing check this out like

620

Lacey: Bessie, do I have the thing

621

Zac: Yeah

622

Lacey: Let's go, girl.

623

Another thing that as we're talking,

I'm really zeroing in on is that you

624

have such a sense of curiosity and

you approach the world from that place

625

of curiosity and I'm just learning

more and more that curiosity mindset.

626

is just a beautiful gift that really takes

down a lot of the walls that we have.

627

Did you watch Ted Lasso?

628

If you didn't, I feel like you are

629

Zac: I did not but you're not the first

person to tell me that so and I love

630

that when people know me well enough

to know these are the things that

631

you're missing out on You know what?

632

like They know it will add

value and add joy to my life.

633

Lacey: So much value.

634

So much joy.

635

But in it, in one episode, he's taught,

he talks about, I think it's an Emerson

636

quote of have curiosity, not judgment.

637

And I'm just learning more and more that

kind of just shift of just being curious

638

is saving a lot of mental anguish and

639

energy for me.

640

Zac: And I'm finding that curiosity,

which thank you for that, like that

641

note, because I do think I, I do tend

to be a curious person and I want to

642

be because the root, it's tied so much

to to being a creative person, you have

643

to be curious about possibility, right?

644

Or empathy, you have to be curious

about how the other person is

645

being affected or how they're,

perceiving this situation that's

646

happening in their lives or whatever.

647

so many of those things that I value,

curiosity is a big link or a connecting

648

point between all of those things.

649

even in the middle, like just the middles

of life, you have to remain curious.

650

I think that's what the middle is an

opportunity to be, is to embrace the

651

wonder of it all and say, okay, this is

not what I expected, or this is not where

652

I would have pictured myself, but this is

an opportunity for, For something else.

653

Let's get curious about it.

654

Lacey: I, I just, as you were

saying this, I had this village

655

visually visualization, whoo.

656

Okay.

657

That was harder than it should have been.

658

Your perspective in the middle, thinking

about it, curiosity opens up the walls

659

of it of to see more of what's going on

the lay of the land and it opens up the

660

possibility and without that curiosity,

you're literally in like a cage.

661

It's just this is the place that I'm in.

662

But with curiosity, you can

push that out more and more to

663

at least feel more comfortable

664

Zac: Yeah.

665

And even what it does

in your brain, I think.

666

it actually, when you start asking

questions, it activates different

667

parts of your brain that helps you

to step back from the situation.

668

And and you feel less in the fight

or flight panic of everything

669

around you that's happening.

670

And when you start asking questions,

it's, you can step back and just see

671

things a little bit from a wider view.

672

Getting curious about

those things helps to.

673

alleviate some of that anxiety, even.

674

Lacey: absolutely.

675

Curiosity is the cure.

676

I will say I'm a little worried

about my son because he seems

677

to think he knows everything.

678

And so if you think you know

everything, you can't be curious.

679

So we're going to have

to work on that one.

680

Zac: That will be a

lifelong journey for him.

681

We should do this more often.

682

I love a good Lacey chat.

683

I think

684

that's why I love listening

to your podcast, I feel like I

685

get to just chat with Lacey or

hear from Lacey all the time.

686

And I love that,

687

Lacey: Yeah, it's one of those things

where the people that I know say

688

that and then I'm like, I guess I

hope people that don't know me in

689

my day to day life feel that way.

690

And they're like, what the hell

is this lady talking about?

691

Zac: again, even before you had the

podcast, I would be like, Oh, my friend

692

Lacey, but I've shared your

book with, a few people who

693

I think could really benefit

from it and they have.

694

I've shared your

695

podcast with people that I think

would really just embrace it, whether

696

for the wisdom, for the joy, for the

humor, all of it, so you're putting

697

good content into the world, my

friend, it is making a difference.

698

So keep going.

699

Lacey: need to hear that.

700

Thank you.

701

Thank you.

702

Thank you.