Ditching the “Supposed To’s” in Life with Dee Hoch

Welcome to sharing the middle of a recovering perfectionist

overachievers, and anyone in the middle of a struggle come together to learn,

to embrace the messy metals of life.

I'm Lacey, your friend in the middle and guide.

Whose claim to fame this week is taken herself out to vote.

So that was pretty cool.

This week, I am joined by Dee Hoch she and i have a really great conversation

about a lot of the supposed to in life that i personally really relate to and

also is really salient because i saw the Barbie movie last week i hope you enjoy

our conversation let's jump right in

Well, welcome Dee.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited.

I'm excited.

I was on your podcast a few weeks ago, and now you're here

today with me in the middle.

So why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself?

Sure.

hi, everybody.

My name is Dee.

I am the founder of, Fire Within Coaching, and what we do is we are an empowerment

company, so we want to empower people, to really live their passion, so we help

people with, change management, and we also help people with, personal safety,

because that's a huge thing people have to feel safe in order to trust.

and we also teach organizations to, be psychologically safe and

to prevent workplace trauma.

That's huge because I think finally workplaces are getting in, starting to

realize oh, we have to actually care about our people and maybe they'll stay.

Imagine that.

Crazy.

Oh my gosh.

so I know you've heard me talk a lot about the middle since I've done your

podcast, but I would love to hear what the middle looks like for you or

means to you, or what the first time you saw it, like what it was for you.

it's funny because I remember you saying once you

see it, you can't unsee it.

and that is so true.

And I found myself referencing that a lot, like there's the beginning, there's the

end, but there's a whole lot of middle, so I feel like right now I'm in my middle,

because I am, I'm 42, so I'm starting like, that new decade, and I'm starting

a new career, and I'm living my passion.

So that is, that's the middle.

I'm trying to just be in the present, and just enjoy it and enjoy this

time instead of rushing to see what's next, what's next, what's next.

and then I have my kids.

I feel like they're in the middle as well because my daughter, she's 16.

So she's, she's at that sort of weird stage where, she's not an adult, but.

thinks she very much is.

an adult?

Yeah, she thinks she's an adult.

but yeah, so it's really just for me, it's just appreciating where you're

at in the present and not worrying about what happened before and not

worry about what's going to happen.

later.

Yeah.

And would you say that you have a good relationship with the middle?

Right now, yes, I would say that, I would say before, because I started

my company because I was burnt out.

so when during the 13 year period where I was burnt out, that.

Was not a middle that was a bad middle, right?

but I was still trying, like I had a goal.

I was going to get my master's degree.

I was going to get my coaching certificate.

I was going to get a new job.

So I was in the middle, but if I appreciate it, because I've learned

quite a bit in that middle, but I am happy that I have a good

relationship with my current middle.

Good.

And you're a fellow, learning and development, we'll say a recovery,

recovery, learning and development, right?

Yeah, yes, I worked in learning development.

I've done a lot of different, learning and development type jobs.

I've done a lot of education for outside, in the community, non, non medical

case management, and then, of course, learning and development, because I

certainly did, just learn things that I didn't really necessarily know before.

I knew, I knew how to do it like I knew how to set it to put out an education,

but I didn't realize that there was like a lot of tips, you know that you

can use like tip little tricks that you can use that make it so much easier.

so I definitely would say that I fell in love with that, that training,

specifically soft skills training because that was 1 that I did is I created.

soft skills training for our team leads.

and I love that.

I love talking about stuff like that.

It's my favorite thing.

Good.

I, yeah, soft skills.

First of all, I hate the actual term soft skills because it's like,

It's what you need to survive in your career, flourish in life, like

I just, soft skills are important.

The term soft skills always is just like sandpaper.

I understand and I love that because I felt that way too.

and I would just say like interpersonal skills, intrapersonal skills, and people

are like, what are you talking about?

I'm like soft skills.

They're like, Oh, I know what that is.

but it's it really I don't like the term soft skills either because it

really is for me just personal skills.

1 of our coaching is, we do personal skills, coaching so and that's what we do.

you pick, what you want to work on.

if it's time management, if it's, self development,

confidence, whatever it is, we.

We want to help.

what middle moment would you like to talk through

or can came to mind for you?

The one middle moment that I was thinking about was, when I was when

I graduated from my master's degree.

and it was during that time.

That period that I ended up burning myself out and I burnt myself out

because I was trying to do everything because I thought that's what

you were supposed to do, right?

You were supposed to be a full time mom.

You were supposed to be a full time wife.

You're supposed to be a full time worker and you're supposed to do everything

else that, society expects women to do.

and It really did burn me out just trying to do that all.

what I did was, I spiraled a little bit just because that's

not where I want it to be.

but I learned so much from that time.

I learned honestly who I don't want to be.

I learned.

I try to take a positive out of everything I do.

that's one is I learned that there are positives in everything that you do.

It might not seem that way at the time, but if you look, if you say,

okay, right now I'm in the middle and I'm, getting my master's degree

and I'm still in the same old job and I'm still doing the old things, but I

feel like I need to be somewhere else.

that's the middle for me because it's I'm still here.

But I gotta get here.

And there's a sticky, like, all up in my feelings middle.

I totally relate to that middle.

I am in one of those now where like we are probably going to be buying a

new home in the next few months, but some other things need to happen first.

And then it's like, well, what can I work on?

And then, but my brain keeps wanting to skip to, to that point,

and it's just so hard to be like, nope, that's, we're not there yet.

Just because it's coming up doesn't mean that we're there yet.

And it's just so hard to be like, no, I'm here.

I feel like the middle is really important because that's

where the juicy stuff happens.

that's where you're living your life.

My father recently passed and he, you know, that was end of life.

because of his end of life, we talked a lot about the middle of his life.

We talked about the things that he accomplished, and the

things that he struggled and overcomed and so on and so forth.

And that happened in the middle.

Yes, they moved to this country to live the American dream.

Yes, they were born, right?

That doesn't really matter.

What happens is what you do after

And how you choose to show up.

I want to go back to This period of burnout.

First of all, you said you were in burnout for 13 years.

I know.

I know

And I just, I, it's one of those things that I totally, as soon as you

said it, I was like, yeah, because you don't know that there's other way.

You know what I mean?

It's like you said it perfectly.

I thought that's what I was supposed to do.

And I think that's one of the hardest things that I've been learning is that.

The supposed to's are often made up.

There are some supposed to's, like, I do need to be able to pay for my life.

Yes.

But I don't, there's not one way that I have to do that.

Right.

Legally, like I don't want to rob a bank or anything.

yeah, but especially I think being a woman, you're supposed to be a mom and

your mom looking like a mom is supposed to look like this and a wife and your

family is supposed to look like this.

And there's just so much that goes along with that.

My first question, though, is what were you getting your master's in?

I'm an education junkie.

Yay.

so my master's, in leadership and development, executive

leadership and development.

Wait.

No, I said that wrong.

What is my master's in?

Executive leadership.

Yeah.

Executive leadership.

So is that organizational management psychology type background?

It combines psychology and business.

gotcha.

That's what I thought.

I want to get into the nitty gritty of what did your life look at that point?

So you're getting this master's degree, you're being a mom, you're working,

you're trying to be a whole person.

and then I want to get to the point that you realize that it's

not, doesn't have to be this way.

So can you get into the details of what it looked like?

Yeah, of course.

I moved down to Virginia about 20 years ago.

And when I moved down, I have, I have a lot, I have older sisters and my

older sisters, they're working in corporate, they're, they're doing what.

society told them to do pretty much and they were taking it all on.

So I thought that's what I needed to do.

I started to work towards, even though it didn't, it never

felt right, never felt right.

But I started working towards getting in with.

With some sort of corporate place, working within an organization and trying

to make change within an organization.

and honestly, I knew from day 1 when I started, my job

that it wasn't for me, but I.

What was I supposed to do?

this is what I was supposed to do.

so I started with, I finished up my bachelor's degree, and then I

went ahead with my master's degree.

And in between that, like I had a baby, and my kids are in, in sports and I

have to, go back and forth with sports and, Takes an effect, especially I

remember, like, when I was going into class, that's time away from my family.

and I had a newborn, as well.

but that was time away from my family.

That I was using to try to get education so I can move up in or in an organization

that I didn't really even want to be with.

I just told myself I did.

I just told myself this is what I'm supposed to do.

And everybody feels this way, and this is just how it feels.

yeah,

Yeah.

it's not a great feeling when you look back and think, Oh my God, like

I really went through all of this.

I remember breaking out in hives, like I'd go to work and I'd break

out in hives, I'd have panic attacks.

and I let this continue for years.

I let it continue and I also let it really eat me alive.

I started as 1 person, and not my best self.

I feel like I'm my best self today.

but I started as 1 person and then I continuously internalized

things that I can't control, and I took that on, I took blame on that

necessarily wasn't even my fault.

I took on, everything.

and we do that as women, we take on everything.

We think that we have to fix everybody's problem.

We have to be the mom who shows up with the homemade cookies.

And by the way, I do store bought because I don't have time to make cookies,

but I was, it ate me up for a while.

I was like, all the other moms are doing this.

And I did a lot of comparison.

and when you compare yourself to people, you're already

setting yourself up for failure.

I'll never forget, at one of my wedding showers,

there were, like, recipe cards.

You were supposed to bring a recipe.

And one of my cousins wrote down, go to Kroger, get cookies, because

sometimes that's what your sanity needs.

And I was like...

It's just nice to hear somebody say that.

I'm like, yeah, that's totally fine.

that's what I need to do.

And so to have that permission

Yeah.

was so great.

Yeah.

Yes.

And it really is.

and I feel like as women, we somehow get in a trap where we tear each

other down rather than support each other and say, you know what, I'm

giving you permission to be this way.

like I'm giving you permission to be a hot mess.

there was this one, Thing on Facebook, I remember.

And she had a kid on her, her hip and she had her hair was a hot mess

and she had stuff on her t shirt.

And I was like, that's me.

And and it even said it, it was like that it's okay to be a hot mess.

Like I'm that mom and I am that mom.

And.

It, I beat myself up a while for it because I always thought I had

to be the best and I thought I had to do things that other moms did.

because you have like moms who, are very high up in, in organizations

and that's wonderful for them.

and I think that's amazing.

If a woman can do that, be successful all the way around, but.

Right now I'm at the point where that's wonderful for you,

but it's not me.

I'll never forget a leader somewhere I was like, yeah, I make it

work by I go home and I put my phone away and we eat dinner and that kind of stuff.

And then my kid goes to bed and then I get back on my phone

and that's how I manage it.

And I just remember thinking, I don't want that.

I don't want to be answering emails at 9pm.

And I'm glad that works for you.

Cool.

I am so glad that it works for you.

I'm glad that you found a way to make that happen, but that's not what I want.

That was a big thing for me to try to figure out how to reconcile.

Yeah, absolutely.

supposed to do and I don't want that,

Now, and we really like when I think about, I have no regrets at all.

Let me just say that.

But when I think about, and I think you told me this,

you should all over yourself.

all over

You did say that.

Yeah.

so I feel like when I do look back, I'm like, I maybe should have done this or I

could have done this and and that's great for me to help other people with, but I'm

not going to keep that because if I keep that, then why am I keeping something

that I can't change and I can't control.

I love that.

That phrase of, I can't keep that.

This idea of I'm just gonna let that one go.

I can't keep that.

I can't keep it.

I know it's such a small distinction, but when people tell you to

let something go, it's like, whatever.

But to say, no, it's not that I have to let it go, it's that I cannot keep it.

That distinction, is blowing my mind right now.

it's not that I have to let it go, it's that I don't want to keep it.

Yeah, I don't have to own it.

that's, I don't have to own that.

and I think that was one of the hardest things for me is realizing

that I don't need to do that.

I don't need to do anything.

and one of the things was, I read, oh, I don't have it behind

me, but I read Jen Sincero.

Are you familiar with her?

Yes.

Yeah.

Her

book, the furiously happily,

yeah, I love her.

and there was one thing that I feel like was just like a ding, ding, ding.

she was talking about how someone, asked her, Hey, are you coming to this party?

And she said, no.

And they were like, why aren't you coming and giving her crap about it.

And she was like, just.

No, like I don't have, I don't have to give you a reason.

It's just no.

And for me, like that is taking control.

And I always thought that I had to justify everything.

I had to say, well, I'm doing this because of this I'm doing.

No, I don't have to do that.

If I don't want to do something, I'm not going to do it.

Cause I know that if I do it, it's only going to be half ass anyways.

Cause I don't want to do it in the first place.

it's funny.

I have a joke that I made on Twitter somewhere where I said, I want to

justify my logic so hard to you that you can never question my decision making.

And so to hear you say no, it's the end of the sentence and I don't need to justify.

I'm like, oh, that's what I'm doing with my logic.

I am justifying so that we're all, we can all know.

That I am the best.

Right.

And that I'm universally okay.

And I don't need to keep that.

who cares?

Yeah.

what I realized is when you aim for perfection, you're already

setting yourself up for failure because there is no perfection.

and someone.

You're not always going to be the best and that took me a long time to realize,

I don't have to be the best, yeah, I don't have to be the best, right?

let me help someone else be the best.

I don't have to be the best.

and I really learned about delegating to my husband and I very much for

example, he, I don't do dishes.

I don't like to just don't ask me why I will clean the toilet.

But I do not like dishes.

Again, don't, I don't understand.

But he is opposite.

It's okay.

I don't have to do the dishes.

So when I hear mom saying, Oh, I'm doing the dishes.

I'm like, you know what?

if you don't want to do it, then ask your partner to do it.

Or, it's okay to say, I don't want to do it.

I'd rather do this.

and you don't have to justify it because there doesn't have to be a reason.

it's just, no.

I love that.

I love that.

So what was the moment that made you change?

That made that transition from years of burnout to being okay

in the middle where you are?

Yeah, so it happened last year.

and, I was doing, there was like a, I forgot what it was.

It was like a upgrade thing and I was working on doing it and I looked at

like the numbers and I was just like.

I don't want to do this.

I don't want to do this.

And, and then they do it twice a year.

And I'm like, I, I don't want to do this again.

I don't want to have to just hurry up, do it, and then hurry up, do it.

that's just not appealing to me.

And some people are great at it.

If that's just not me.

so I was just looking and I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to be here.

And then I started having panic attacks, which my panic attacks.

I was having before and I broke out on hives and everything like that.

So when I got to that point where I'm like, I'm having panic attacks

again, I can't keep doing this.

And my husband even said, he's like, something's got to go.

Like you are not happy at happy everywhere else, but not happy at work.

And he's actually the one that said to me, you spent half your time there.

Like you have to get along with your coworkers.

You have to, enjoy your work because you're there half the time.

and I had was also going through my coaching certificate at that time.

So come August, I was ready to just be out in the world and, be a coach and, just.

My little social justice heart, just be out there and, make a difference.

And I was still not happy because I was still in the same job and I had convinced

myself, I have to have a job in order to leave this job, which is not true.

I'm not saying don't quit your job without a job because definitely don't do that.

But for me, it was financially possible.

yes, we don't go out to eat anymore as much as I like.

But, it was financially possible for me.

So I think when I got, I just got to that point where I was like, I'm done.

I can't do this.

And, I had a meeting, with, One of my senior directors and when we

were in this meeting in my head, I'm like, I don't want to be here.

I don't want to be having this conversation.

I don't want to do this work.

I don't want to be here.

And again, she even said, she's why are you still here?

And I'm like, I need another job.

So then I went home because that was on a Friday.

I went home and I'm like.

Do I really need another job?

let's really look at it.

Let's really look at the numbers.

Let's really look at everything and see, do I, is that really

what I need, in order to leave?

And it turned out that it wasn't.

And I even, I was like, if it comes out where we do want to go

out to dinner or something like that, I can get a part time job.

it's not a huge deal.

It's just.

That if I identify I don't want to be somewhere and somewhere is not

psychologically safe for me and I can't be my best self, there's

no reason for me to be there.

It's not serving me.

Don't keep it.

It's not serving you.

I love that.

we are close to the end of our time together.

So do you have a piece of advice that either you would give yourself or that you

have lived by that you found very helpful?

I would say, and I recently just posted this on my new Gitlet

group, which is on Alignable.

so honestly, don't waste time.

on things you can't control.

You are giving away your power.

When you do that, you're giving away your power when you own

something that's not yours to own.

So what can I control?

you can control how grateful you are.

For where you are, you can control what influences you.

You can control how you respond to things.

You can control what story you tell yourself.

And that was a huge one, too.

Yes, like what story are you telling yourself about this other person that

may have annoyed you and, now they're all everything that they say you

already are annoyed before they even speak because they annoyed you once.

you can control that.

That's not on them.

That is your problem to fix like they have problems to fix.

Yes, but you cannot fix them.

You can only fix yourself.

Your destiny, your, future, all of it is in your hands, not anyone else's.

So when you are somewhere where you're giving your power away, run the other way.

Because I promise then it's gonna be 13 years and you'll be

like, what did I do with my life?

It's gonna take a lot to recover from that level of burnout though.

yeah, it did.

so I opened my business in August.

and I took August to December and I just did whatever I needed to do to be whole.

I relaxed.

I spent time with my family.

I Connected with friends that I hadn't talked to in forever.

I really, I needed that time frame.

So if you are someone who is feeling burnt out, you need to give yourself space.

To heal.

Because if you just keep saying, oh no, I'm not going to do that.

I'm not gonna cry, I'm not gonna show my emotions, I'm not gonna, they'll come out.

I promise you, your emotions will come out.

and they won't come out the way you want them to

A week vacation is a band aid over a bullet hole in that

it really is.

Yes.

And I love that you said that because it really is, taking, mental health days.

if you're not doing it consistently, you're just putting a bandaid on it.

absolutely.

thank you so much for chatting with me and joining me today.

Where can people find you and potentially work with you?

Yeah, so I am on LinkedIn and I'm on LinkedIn is Dee Hoch.

actually I'm on everywhere is Dee Hoch actually now I think about it.

So it's LinkedIn, Facebook and, poly Work and Alignable.

I will, Say that alignable if you are in the United States, and

you're a small business owner, definitely try out alignable.

Thank

thank you for joining me today.