Welcome to sharing the middle.

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Where we try to see and feel seen by

each other, by sharing our stories

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of the messy middles of life.

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I'm Lacey your.

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Guide through the middle.

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Fellow middler, whatever

you want to call me.

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And this is part two of my

conversation with my dear friend, Emma.

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And I'm going to be upfront with

y'all that it gets pretty deep

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in this episode and you actually

learn a lot about me and my.

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Internal world and so many other things.

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Putting this one out there.

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It's very vulnerable for me.

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But I have a feeling that there will be.

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several, if not many people.

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Who see a little bit of

themselves in parts of it.

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We do talk about things like body image.

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Self-esteem.

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, relationships, all that kind of stuff.

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So if any of that's a

little triggering for you.

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Feel free to skip this one.

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I am again, so thankful for Emma for

having this conversation, because

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what you'll hear is at some point she

starts interviewing me, which I think

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is something that only a good friend.

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I can do.

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Of being like, no, no, no.

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Let's get to the meat and it is.

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Fantastic and wonderful.

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Let's dive back into my

conversation with Emma so we can

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continue to tell my story through

conversations of people in my life.

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Let's jump right in.

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I just love, I also love that we had

very different parents and that, like

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your mom to me is like the symbol of

an independent woman in a lot of ways.

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And I love that I had that to look at

as oh, this is another option in life.

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Emma: And like when things weren't.

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going to work out financially?

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She's nope, I'm going to make it work.

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And she started a second business and

she worked two jobs and she was like

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the OG hustler of, I'm going to make

this work and I'm going to keep this

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farm so my kids can grow up here.

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And I even remember turning, when I was

18, I was like, why are we still here?

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this is a lot of work.

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And she looked at us and she was

like, I kept this house because I

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wanted you guys to have this childhood

and now looking back I'm like how

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many memories do we have of running

through those woods and the gator

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Lacey: many.

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Emma: and the birthday parties and

the bonfires and it was just such

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a cool way to grow up that even now

I'm like okay how can I give that

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to my kids like I don't want my

kids to be raised in a neighborhood.

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They need some, they need a tree to climb.

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we don't even, we have one tree.

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They need multiple trees to climb.

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They need fields to run through.

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And it's just such a really

cool, but we only had that

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because she wouldn't give up.

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Yeah.

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It's

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Lacey: When she also was one of my

first views of motherhood of she

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was her own person and a mother not.

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just a mother.

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And I don't want to, I don't say that to

my mom is like the ultimate mother figure.

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And so that was always my standard.

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I'm like, Oh, you live up

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Emma: exhausting.

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Lacey: Yeah.

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Emma: That's a lot of pressure.

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Lacey: And so I have seen

her be like, she's a mom.

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And she has her boundaries in places

like, Lori would lock the door to her

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bedroom, which I respect so hard now.

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Emma: know.

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I know.

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Lacey: I respect so hard now.

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I don't even think I ever went into

her room, it's so I just, but I'm

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just like, what a good boundary.

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I don't know.

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I just look back on some

of those things that I did.

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that maybe I thought were like weird or

Oh, why are they making that choice now?

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I'm like, Oh,

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Emma: it makes sense.

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Lacey: so hard.

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Emma: Yes.

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It's so interesting you say that

because I never saw it that way

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because I was living it, right?

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Now, because you've said that, I'm like,

oh, that's why I never really wanted to

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stay home because she didn't, she's always

worked so hard and she loved her job.

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And so finding a career that I loved,

that I thrived in, but also finding

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a side gig that I loved while she did

that also, it like our lives aligned so

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much more than I think what I would have

ever put together until you said that.

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Lacey: Oh, you guys are a lot alike now.

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When I see you're working out

videos and food stuff, I'm like,

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Oh, I remember when Emma was salty

that her mom had only healthy

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food.

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Emma: And that's why I remember

your family's burritos.

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Because yeah, we had, I can't

believe it's not butter.

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And we did have easy Mac.

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We had peanut butter and jelly.

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We had a scallop chicken and noodles.

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We had all the fun stuff, but majority was

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Lacey: low fat

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Emma: Yes.

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Yes.

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That low fat generation, man.

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Lacey: I was, but I was just

thinking about that the other day.

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I'm like, oh, she's become

Lori in a lot of ways.

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Which is funny because you would

have thought it was Abby, but no.

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Emma: Nope.

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Lacey: It came around to you.

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Yes.

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Which

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Emma: Which is funny because

Abby's so nurturing now.

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It's wild because my sister

growing up she, I feel like

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everybody was scared of her.

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And like she intimidated

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Lacey: But she always liked me,

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Emma: did always But she is the

softest, cuddliest human on the planet.

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She It's she loves to tie dye,

she loves to read books, she loves

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she's a teacher and so she loves

her job and she just, It is so wild

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to see her switch so dramatically

into this, soft, cuddly bear who,

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Lacey: who dye

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Emma: and knit and she's the sewer

of the family and she loves to cook

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and she houses us every holiday

because she's so much of a better

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cook than I am and, yeah, it's I,

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Lacey: like, I logically know it.

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I've seen it.

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I'm friends with Abby on Facebook,

but I'm also like, I don't know.

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Abby's voice always

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Emma: Got you.

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Scary.

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She's the scary one.

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That's how I felt about

Paige's sister, too.

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Do you

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Lacey: Oh, yeah.

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Emma: But your sisters were never scary.

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Lacey: No.

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No, they weren't.

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Emma: I think Rob was the

scariest out of all of them.

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Yeah.

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But that's just because I was

never exposed to a brother.

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Yeah.

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Lacey: And boys I think are different.

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And he also was, even though he

was five years older than us,

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he was still the closest in age.

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So I think those kinds of

things all add up to it.

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Emma: See, in my mind,

Becky's the closest.

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Is she not?

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She's not, no.

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Nope.

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But she was always there taking care of us

and letting us use her clothes and Yeah.

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Lacey: Yeah.

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No.

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It's also funny though, Amy, who

you would think is the softest

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of my, my, my siblings, was

the meanest to me growing up.

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Really?

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Oh my gosh.

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Amy used to drag me up

the stairs by my hair.

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Emma: Yeah.

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Oh

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Lacey: But that didn't happen

as much when we moved to Tip.

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That happened mostly when

we lived in Fort Thomas,

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Emma: so when she was like 13,

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Lacey: No, she would have,

she was like in high school.

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She would, she knew

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better.

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And I was much younger.

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I know.

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But.

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then she came around and she

fed me for years when I would go

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visit her and her kids for dinner.

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So it's just so weird to see how those,

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Emma: Yeah.

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They shift.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I don't feel like you or I

shifted that dramatically.

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No.

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No, we're pretty much

the same people, I think.

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Lacey: I will say you are less

weird than you used to be.

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Emma: I used to be a compulsive liar also.

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I really think I had a large

shift around 17, 18, where I,

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I drank a lot in high school.

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I haven't had a drink in three years.

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I smoked a lot in high school.

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I did smoke through 120,

so that doesn't count.

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I cussed a lot.

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Do you remember how much I cussed?

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I

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Lacey: did, but we were allowed

to cuss at your house when we were

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13.

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Emma: Oh,

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yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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And that's where Lori was a rebel.

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She was the rebel parrot.

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Lacey: I will say, thinking about

it now, I'm like, uh, I don't know.

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But I also, I think I view cussing

and cursing different, and like,

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if my kids say it, it's just

don't say it in front of other

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Emma: I

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Lacey: It doesn't

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Emma: matter.

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yeah.

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Lacey: But I remember the 13 year old

role, and I was like, yeah, I'm 13 now.

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Emma: Do you remember how

much of a liar I used to be?

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Lacey: Yeah.

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Emma: Oh, that, if

there is one thing of my

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Lacey: It was so from insecurity though.

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And it was always about the

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Emma: things.

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Yes, I know, but it was like

compulsive about dumb stuff.

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Yeah.

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That's what's so wild.

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I'm like, I look back and I'm like,

you know how there's that one thing in

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your childhood that just nags at you?

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Like, why did I do that?

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It was that.

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And if I ever left anybody out,

the idea of leaving anybody out,

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what is that, strength finders.

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Like one of my biggest things is

making sure everybody feels involved.

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Yeah.

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Because the idea of ever leaving

anybody out makes me crippled.

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Lacey: It's so funny, because

there are times where I was

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left out, but it was never

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your

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Emma: No, but I allowed it to happen.

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Oh, wow.

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And that is just as bad.

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There were birthday parties, there

were laser tag events, there were

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so many things that I allowed to

happen, and I never stopped it.

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And I will never, I will work on

forgiveness for that, but also, it

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hurts me just as much as it'll hurt you.

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Lacey: But there, I would say there

are certain people that things are

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specifically tied to events that

happened and that were consistent.

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Emma: But even in life, when

you allow something to happen,

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you are still in charge of that.

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And so the fact that ever even

allowed that to happen still.

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Yeah.

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I am sorry.

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I know.

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But, But I am.

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I don't have to be, but I really am.

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Lacey: I know.

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It's

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Emma: It's part of childhood, right?

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Lacey: is.

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It's part of childhood.

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And it's so weird.

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I

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wouldn't say that I was ever bullied.

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truly bullied or anything like that.

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But I do think about certain friendships.

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And oh man.

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Thank God, you can move on with life

and not have to see things anymore.

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Because, I, I don't hold ill will

towards anybody or anything like that.

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It's just that's one of the

beautiful things about growing up.

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I told this to my niece who's graduating

high school this year, and I'm like, you

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get to choose who's in your life, and you

don't have to put up with stuff anymore.

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And I just.

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I think about that sometimes, too.

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Emma: But in the moment it feels like

I remember being in eighth grade and

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in the moment those people in your

life that are so toxic, it feels like

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you'll never be able to escape it.

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Yeah.

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And it feels so heavy all the time.

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Yeah.

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My fourth grader is

having really bad issues.

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she's actually working through them

right now, but I have her in counseling

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right now because of Friendships.

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Yeah.

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And I looked at her and I

was like, girl, I get it.

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Let's go get you some help because

you need to learn boundaries and

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barriers right now at a younger

age so this doesn't haunt you the

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rest of, so thankfully, counseling.

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Lacey: Heck yeah.

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You know I'm all pro therapy.

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I know.

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We

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Emma: also go get Starbucks beforehand,

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Lacey: I think it's really cool that

you think about your experience and you

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think, no, I wanna give you the tools now

so you don't have to feel this way later

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on.

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Emma: And I do think that's

the better aspect of our

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generation that we've learned.

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But I don't think our parents

even had that availability.

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it wasn't around.

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So they couldn't have given us that.

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Lacey: It's like with Isaac right

now, he's having some issues, and

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we're working on getting him tools to

be able to deal with them, and Joe's

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just like, I'm so glad he's not gonna

have to figure this all out on his

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own when everything crumbles to the

ground and he doesn't know what to

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do.

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And I'm just like, you're right.

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You're right.

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You're right.

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it's okay.

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He's doing that now.

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He's supposed to do that now.

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but I also think, Looking back now,

those friendships that were not

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great and toxic, I don't know, I'm

just I learned a lot from that.

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Looking back now, and the effort

that it took to be mean to people is

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just something I've never understood.

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Emma: don't either.

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Lacey: And there are times where I think

about something that I've said, and I'm

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like, Oh, I shouldn't have said that.

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But I never intentionally

tried to hurt someone.

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I do think about things that I'm

like, Oh, nope, that was mean.

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We put a girl's bra in a cooler.

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It wasn't even a freezer.

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It was a cooler.

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I think I had a lot of friendships

that I felt like I had to be very

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performative in, but that our

friendship was never like that for me.

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And so I think that's another reason

why it's easy to continue being friends.

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Emma: So I also think too like

we can snap back and instantly

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just be ourselves again.

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Lacey: I know.

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it was funny because I could

tell the beginning you were like,

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there's a microphone and we're

talking and I didn't want you to

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feel like you to put on a show.

316

And then no,

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Emma: It's the beginning.

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I don't like the beginning of anything.

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I know.

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Lacey: I know.

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And I, yeah, but I agree.

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It's just, yeah, just who we are.

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And I think you, like I said, I think you

have, One of the clearest pictures of who

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I am to my core as a person, and I just

don't think that's something that fades.

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Emma: Okay, so I do want to know what

season of your life do you feel was

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the hardest or like looking back at

your childhood you were like this

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season was just really difficult.

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Lacey: our older years in high school,

I made some decisions I'm not very

329

proud of, I actually have a lot of

lingering issues from that I'm now

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starting to work on and deal with.

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And, so that was a very

isolating and hard time for

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Emma: yeah.

333

Lacey: And even during that time, though,

I remember, I don't know if it's because

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you just weren't in school very much.

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I just remember being like,

but I have Emma over here.

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I don't, it was not, I don't know.

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I don't, I don't associate

you with it at all.

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That was a very hard time for me.

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And I, but I also, not even thinking

about that, but I think about

340

just my relationship with myself.

341

And that was a period of time where I

started to just be really hard on myself.

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Emma: that was going into senior

year when you were class president.

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Lacey: Yeah.

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because I spent a lot of,

I spent a lot of time.

345

being sad that I didn't have male

attention, that boys didn't like me.

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I was always the bigger girl,

like all of those things.

347

And I spent a lot of time feeling

alienated because of that.

348

And, I wish I could tell that

girl now, like girlfriend.

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You actually don't like them.

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Emma: no, they're all

really crappy people.

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So

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Lacey: they're douchebags and some,

and it was one of those things too

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where any scrap of attention I got

was meant the world to me and was

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frankly meant way too much to me.

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and I just think about not that

I think anybody took advantage

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of that or anything like, I just.

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I think about that girl, and I think about

that time, and I just, I don't remember.

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When I say I don't remember that time,

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Emma: You blocked it out?

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Lacey: I truly don't

remember a lot of that

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Emma: I think our brains do that almost so

we can heal from it without having to walk

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through it over and over and live in it.

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Lacey: it.

364

is, but what I've learned, because like I

said, I've been going through therapy and

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like literally, I just, I'm doing trauma.

366

based therapy with, actively

working on this specificallY.

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, I think I have placed a lot

more value on that time because.

368

My brain won't let me access it,

and anytime, but the fact that I'm

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even having this conversation right

now is a really big step for me.

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but that time specifically, anytime

I would think about it or think

371

about anything connected to it.

372

my chest would lock up.

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Emma: and

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Lacey: a long time, I just

was like, that's how you feel.

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That's how you feel.

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That's how you feel.

377

And then I'm like, Oh no, I've

learned that's called trauma.

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Emma: Yeah, something else under

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Lacey: There's that's called trauma.

380

And that is affecting a lot of the

decisions that I was making all the

381

time until like my mid twenties.

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It's hard.

383

That time I also think about, a lot

of people would look at that time

384

and say, oh my gosh, you were student

body president, you were doing all

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Emma: all the things.

386

Yeah.

387

Lacey: But I couldn't even, I

couldn't even tell you about anything.

388

Emma: It'll be interesting to loop

back around and see maybe what is

389

uncovered through your therapy.

390

Lacey: Yeah, my therapist, one of

the things that we talked about,

391

what success would look like for me

is me being able to talk about it.

392

So me even just talking about a

bad thing happened that existed

393

during this time, huge for

394

me.

395

Huge.

396

and I still may cut this out.

397

I dunno.

398

Emma: the learning experience

you gained through it.

399

allowed you to maybe have some

walls up to be able to meet Joe.

400

don't you just wish you could

go sit knee to knee with that

401

girl and be like, just wait.

402

Wait till you meet your husband.

403

I got something really good for you.

404

You just,

405

Lacey: and it's really funny.

406

I have, just was finishing editing

my conversation with my cousin.

407

And in it, I do say, it took me being

with Joe for two years to realize that

408

I, Don't care about a man's opinion

of me like that it took me having

409

it and having it in a positive way

to realize how unimportant it was.

410

And one I hate it because

I'm like, damn it, Joe.

411

But I just it took me so long to And I do.

412

I just I think back and

it was so important to me.

413

Emma: Yeah.

414

Lacey: It was so important to me.

415

and there are so many places where

I just made decisions where I was

416

like, why would you do I know.

417

Emma: I hate to say this because

I'm like, man, it's one of those

418

moments where I'm like, look at you,

419

Lacey: I

420

Emma: look at you getting out of the

box, look at you like working through

421

it, look at you like just, I don't know,

healing yourself and doing all the things

422

that are going to make you a better

person and more healed person in the end.

423

Lacey: I am doing it now for myself,

not for someone else thinking I'm

424

better, or, I don't know, anybody, it's

only for me to truly be better, not

425

I don't know how else to say

426

Emma: Not to prove that you're trying,

427

Lacey: Yeah.

428

not to do it because I should do

it, and not to do it because it's

429

the right thing to say that I'm

doing it, but to do it because it

430

will actually make me feel better.

431

Emma: Right.

432

How do you think Joe has maybe

healed you through your marriage

433

to prove as a father, as a husband,

watching him even parent differently?

434

Do you feel like that has been healing?

435

Lacey: I didn't know men like Joe existed.

436

I didn't know that there were men that

football wasn't, or sports or whatever

437

wasn't their main priority in life.

438

I didn't know.

439

I didn't know, which is so funny because

440

some people have commented that I do have

a very masculine energy in some ways.

441

And I'm just like, but I've always

442

not I've always thought

that was this one thing.

443

And now I think I

understand it a little bit

444

more.

445

But that was really the biggest

thing that Joe taught me is oh.

446

I don't actually like those men.

447

Emma: yeah.

448

Lacey: That's just what I thought

everything was and that existed.

449

And I actually think about a lot of

the boys that we went to school with

450

now in a very kind of like fond way of

451

Emma: yeah, they're fun and

452

Lacey: outgoing and fun

and that kind of thing.

453

And, Teenage boys are still my least

favorite demographic in the world.

454

I know that they're going to come

comment on my podcast about it.

455

But, I find them more

scary than teenage girls.

456

Middle school girls, though.

457

Emma: Ooh.

458

Lacey: Scary.

459

But high school girls,

I can deal with them.

460

'cause I know how

461

insecure they are.

462

Exactly.

463

Emma: You know what the root of them are.

464

Lacey: but teenage boys, it's just,

it's so in, in proving a ma a certain

465

Emma: it's a

466

whole testosterone surge.

467

Yeah.

468

Lacey: and

469

Emma: I just.

470

Everything about them is just.

471

Lacey: yeah.

472

The fact that Joe existed still

is something that I value, and

473

that, Joe thinks I'm the most

beautiful woman in the world.

474

genuinely, he does.

475

And, oh, I might cry.

476

I've always known that I'm pretty,

I'm really good at compartmentalizing

477

and logicing out of, I have a

pretty face, I have a nice smile,

478

but I've always been bigger.

479

I've always been the biggest friend.

480

There was never, I was always the

biggest girl in the group, and I

481

think that had a bigger impact on

me than probably any of you knew

482

Emma: Never.

483

I never knew it.

484

Because you carry yourself

with such confidence.

485

Lacey: yeah, because even though

we all know I'm the biggest one,

486

we shouldn't talk about it because

that'll point direct, attention to it.

487

Emma: but to me, that's, saying

Lauren was always the tallest.

488

And I feel like as we were kids,

we didn't even think about that.

489

You know what I mean?

490

Like it never,

491

Lacey: you didn't think

492

Emma: yes.

493

And that's the ignorance that I'm

like, Oh, Oh, what you must have been

494

feeling that I wasn't even aware of.

495

Lacey: Yeah.

496

And no one ever made me feel,

none of the girls ever made

497

me feel less than or, one time

498

called me fat, but no,

she called me obese.

499

, I, this, I literally think about this all

the time and I have to say this out loud.

500

We were in class, and she was sitting with

501

, and they were like right in

front of me, and we were being

502

taught the word obese, and

503

leaned over to

504

and said, I know someone obese, Lacey.

505

, that, that has stuck with me.

506

Emma: is fat shaming in the 90s.

507

Lacey: I know.

508

I was, I'm like, I'm right

509

Emma: That memory that

you'll never forget.

510

Lacey: I know.

511

Emma: that's what I think is

wild about humans is that we have

512

those that make up our childhood.

513

And that's one of those memories.

514

Told me one time that I had more

hair on my lip than he did, which

515

I still have a very hairy lip.

516

It's fine.

517

Lacey: I do.

518

Emma: and I remember the entire

day I took scotch tape and I

519

tried to rip the hair off my lip.

520

It's like those memories that

are burned into your soul

521

Mhm.

522

Mhm.

523

Lacey: There were glimmers of boys

maybe actually thinking I'm attractive.

524

Emma: Because you are.

525

we all know Laci's beautiful.

526

Lacey: and like there were times

where I would get close with

527

a guy in a very platonic way.

528

Yes.

529

And something would happen that it

would be like, oh, you don't want

530

to be seen with me, even as my

being your friend, because people

531

could think you would like me.

532

And that really stuck with

me of that kind of stuff.

533

But the girls never made me feel that way.

534

Like my friends, I, no one ever

said anything to me or anything

535

like that, but it was just

something that I assumed was known.

536

because we can all see me.

537

I'm not, it's not a secret.

538

That's one of the things

that it's yeah, I don't know.

539

I think about it now.

540

I'm like, why?

541

I don't know.

542

I remember, having to order a t shirt

and, giving my size was the most anxiety

543

ridden thing because I knew I would have

to have a bigger size than everybody else.

544

it's and it's so stupid.

545

I don't know.

546

Emma: But even though it's

stupid, it's still real.

547

it's still feelings that you,

548

Lacey: and like I said, there were some

boys who paid attention to me in private,

549

Emma: Mm hmm.

550

Lacey: but not in public, which I think

just really fucked with me in a lot of

551

ways of thinking that was more normal.

552

Emma: but I also, I love listening

to your podcast, especially with the

553

health and wellness people, when you

are able to vocally proclaim yes,

554

I have worked through this though.

555

And I know that doesn't matter

because it doesn't like.

556

At the end of the day, who you are as a

person is all that matters, and I think

557

that's what your friends saw, is who you

are, your brain, your heart, and how you

558

show up for your life matters way more

than what you look like on the outside.

559

But also, I understand that was a

huge part of our childhood that you

560

had to battle, and that is hard.

561

Lacey: Yeah.

562

It's Certainly

563

not pleasant.

564

I know.

565

Emma: especially as kids, we don't know,

566

.

Lacey: I think for me now, too, especially, I recently was diagnosed

567

with diabetes and it, I've not said it

anywhere because I have this, It's still

568

that same of Oh, it's because I'm fat.

569

Emma: you had diabetes

when you were pregnant.

570

you are just prone to it.

571

look at your genetics.

572

that's what I was going to say.

573

Look at your genetics.

574

you are predestined genetically.

575

there are so many things.

576

That's like having long toes.

577

Lacey: Joe,

578

the other day when I I told him,

579

I was like, I'm just,

it feels like I failed.

580

And he was like, Oh my God.

581

He's Lacey, he's you're great.

582

Your maternal grandmother had it.

583

Your dad has had

584

Emma: it.

585

Yes.

586

Lacey: You have PCOS.

587

You, you

588

Emma: you have all of it.

589

You can't move and

590

Lacey: and do all the things

that you're supposed to.

591

And he was like, it's like expecting a

little league team to beat the Yankees.

592

Emma: Exactly.

593

Exactly.

594

that's what I just want to be

595

Lacey: like, Yeah, I guess

there's a possibility.

596

Emma: no, you are genetically predestined.

597

that's it's like you getting PCOS

and thinking it's your fault.

598

Lacey: I know.

599

I'm.

600

Emma: that's not your fault.

601

that's your genetics.

602

Like,

603

Lacey: I, again, logically,

I can know all these

604

Emma: things.

605

Also, can you imagine the battle that

you would have to go through the rest

606

of your life to combat your, yes, maybe

if you did XYZ and you were perfectly

607

healthy and you didn't have a chronic

illness and you weren't already, like,

608

maybe, Maybe, maybe there's a 5 percent

chance you didn't end up with it,

609

but I know plenty of people that they

do XYZ and they still have it, like,

610

Lacey: it's interesting cause

I've started taking Menjaro, which

611

is, and so I've lost five pounds

612

But it's, I don't want to talk about that.

613

I'm losing weight because I

don't want it to be a thing.

614

Emma: Yeah.

615

Lacey: because I am probably going to be

on it for the rest of my life, which means

616

I probably will be at a smaller size soon.

617

Emma: Yeah.

618

Lacey: And I,

619

Emma: this, and this

620

Lacey: shit, just from then is still

in my head of maybe boys will like me.

621

Like literally.

622

I had that thought and I'm like,

there is a boy that likes me.

623

Emma: and he's, the greatest human

624

Lacey: he's great.

625

I want to punch him in the

626

Emma: face so much even if you

didn't love joe if you listen to your

627

podcast Maybe you didn't know Joe.

628

Me.

629

I barely knew Joe and I listened

to the podcast and I'm like,

630

oh man, that man is incredible.

631

He is a delight.

632

He is funny.

633

He cares.

634

He shows up.

635

He sits on a podcast.

636

That is amazing.

637

it truly,

638

Lacey: is such

639

Emma: such a

640

Lacey: he he really is.

641

And I.

642

Emma: to know your kids get him as a dad.

643

At the end of the day, how cool is that?

644

Lacey: Oh, my kids are

645

amazing.

646

Freaking

647

Emma: lucky.

648

Lacey: I am so proud of our approach to

parenting and how we're, truly on the

649

same page of wanting our children to be

the best people that they can be without

650

the pressure that I put on myself.

651

Because I, again, I say this all the

time, no one made me feel that like I

652

Emma: to be.

653

No, you're the youngest child.

654

you don't fit that scenario.

655

Lacey: So I'm not, I don't know who to

blame for that, but it's certainly, it's

656

not my mom's fault, or anything like

657

Emma: I would say society.

658

Lacey: I have always had

anxiety and I've not known

659

Emma: it.

660

Lacey: and that I also have

always had big emotions and my

661

big emotions were not appreciated.

662

by the world a lot of times.

663

And I learned very quickly

that you just push it down.

664

Emma: You dumb yourself

down a little bit too.

665

Yeah.

666

Yeah.

667

Lacey: Push it down.

668

You push it down.

669

And then here's the problem.

670

I'm really smart.

671

And

672

so you know what that does?

673

That makes my anxiety really

674

Emma: smart.

675

Lacey: And so there are times in my

life where I'm like, holy shit, I was

676

so anxious and I didn't even know it.

677

Yeah.

678

Because it was so sneaky

and it wouldn't let

679

me see it.

680

I don't know.

681

It's.

682

It's nefarious.

683

I started to think, I posted this

the other day, I started to think

684

of my anxiety as a misinformed spy.

685

Like she's really devious.

686

She does some weird shit in the

background that I don't understand,

687

but she's using the wrong briefing.

688

Emma: Yes.

689

Yes.

690

Lacey: So I can listen to her

and just be like, Oh, honey.

691

You

692

Emma: But to ignore her does more damage.

693

Yes.

694

Lacey: And that's, I do think

that's ultimately why I ended

695

up with what I ended up chronic

illness wise is I need to say this

696

for myself and for everybody else.

697

It is real.

698

My illness is real.

699

What happens to me is real.

700

But I think the stress that my

body had, because I had always,

701

I've always essentially been

like, my body is my enemy.

702

I've never once not thought

my body was my, wasn't my

703

Emma: enemy.

704

Lacey: and so, 30 years of

stress of fighting yourself

705

and, being smart about it.

706

at a certain point, a

soldier's gonna go down.

707

Emma: It's like a runner who is so

mentally capable of pushing themselves

708

that they get to almost the end

of a race and their body snaps.

709

Because no matter how mentally strong

you are, your body is still in control.

710

Yeah.

711

yeah.

712

And hormones are developed by your mind.

713

They're developed by your gut.

714

And when you don't take care of

those, it shuts down your body.

715

Lacey: I am so thankful.

716

Every day that I found

Joe, and that Joe found me,

717

and

718

that I made Joe be my boyfriend,

but I am thankful for what I learned

719

about myself, probably the most

with him, because he's always just

720

let me be whatever I needed to be.

721

Emma: Now, relating to your

chronic illness, I really want

722

to know, do you ever have moments

where you're thankful for it?

723

Which sounds twisted because I know it's

so debilitating and it has taken your

724

life and it's taken so many aspects of

who you are as a person, but also there's

725

so many things that have come out of it.

726

this podcast, like being at home, moving.

727

finding a new place to raise your

children, all of those things that

728

came out of you having to literally

lay down your life and start fresh.

729

are you ever grateful for it?

730

Yeah.

731

And learning how to listen to your body.

732

Lacey: Yeah.

733

that part of what I, the reason why I

am better generally today is because I

734

have learned how to listen to my body

735

Emma: and

736

Lacey: and rest and knowing oh,

my body's not out to get me.

737

My body is not my enemy.

738

I also, like I said, I,

it's almost like it's.

739

It's doing the opposite of what

that previous experience was for

740

me, where it shut me and made me

smaller, whereas my chronic illness

741

somehow has allowed me to be bigger.

742

And in a lot of different ways.

743

And I'm, I am appreciative of that because

I probably would have always just kept

744

my head down and doing the thing that I

thought I was supposed to be doing all

745

the time and, didn't take a step back

and think about, what do I actually want?

746

Emma: And you would

have been too scared to.

747

Lacey: Yeah, I would have

never done it on my own.

748

Emma: It was a forced halt.

749

Lacey: I think it all happened at

the time it was supposed to happen.

750

I, a couple weeks before I really was bad.

751

I looked at Joe and I was like,

what if I could do this like writing

752

and podcasting thing full time?

753

And he was like, let's take it one

754

Emma: step

755

Lacey: a time.

756

And then a few weeks later,

my body was like, you're done.

757

So it did make it so that was something.

758

that I could do.

759

So I, yeah, I am thankful for that.

760

I think it's made me a

better mom in a lot of ways.

761

It's made me a worse

mom in other ways, but

762

Emma: it's made probably

realize, actually matters.

763

Does doing matter?

764

No.

765

Lacey: Yes.

766

My children have a level of empathy

767

That, Iris was still in, we'll see,

but Isaac, his empathy is off the

768

charts and not in a people pleasing

way in a place of genuine care.

769

And I think that started when I was

pregnant with Iris and I was constantly

770

puking and peeing my pants all the time.

771

And he would come to my back and

pat my back while I was puking.

772

but I think that has given, that has been

a gift that, I am so proud of the little

773

boy that he is

774

because he really is so empathetic and

genuinely wants to help and everyone to

775

be good and happy and all that stuff.

776

And again, not coming from a

place of shame or coming from

777

a place of that he should, but

coming from a true place of love.

778

And I just, that's really freaking

779

Emma: cool.

780

Yeah.

781

Wow.

782

Lacey: I certainly do have

a lot of those things.

783

I honestly try not to say some of

those things because I still have the

784

battle in my mind of, is this real?

785

Am I making this all up?

786

I know that's ridiculous,

787

Emma: but,

788

Lacey: but

789

Emma: regardless if it's ridiculous,

you're still, it's a thought

790

that goes through your mind

791

Lacey: all the time still.

792

And but it's because remember,

I never trusted my body.

793

Anytime my body gave me messages before

794

I listen.

795

I told it was wrong and

that I was dramatic.

796

Now that I'm actually listening to my body

and I get signals of I need to lay down,

797

there's still that voice

of like, but do you really?

798

Emma: yes, you

799

Lacey: Yeah, that, that's always there.

800

And it's,

801

again,

802

it's smart and it's sneaky.

803

Too smart and sneaky.

804

I think chronic illness has taught

me is that the world is not in

805

black and white, and that two

contradicting things can be very true.

806

And that a lot of our

beliefs about the world have

807

deprogrammed us from what we are.

808

we know

809

is right.

810

Emma: Right.

811

Lacey: And it's so funny to say

that because I've always had a very

812

strong moral compass, very strong.

813

hence why apparently nobody

just even invited me to do bad

814

things.

815

Emma: Nope.

816

Lacey: but you would

think that internal voice

817

of

818

what's right and wrong would be able

to apply to a lot of different things.

819

Because they're not necessarily there are

certain things that Joe's that's okay.

820

And I'm like, no, it's not.

821

It's not okay, because this isn't

So you would think I wouldn't have

822

internalized so many of those messages so

823

Emma: much,

824

Lacey: Subconsciously.

825

Yeah.

826

It's still definitely there.

827

And that I've learned the more that I

lean into just me and my instincts and

828

what I know, the better I end up being.

829

And that a lot of times, a lot of

these things that I've made law

830

in my head are completely made up.

831

Completely made up.

832

And not helpful.

833

Emma: No.

834

If anything, they're sabotaging you.

835

I

836

Lacey: I know.

837

Because if there's anything with

chronic illness, you get time to think.

838

Emma: See, there is a light side.

839

There's a silver lining to everything.

840

Lacey: There is.

841

Emma: Well, did It help also that Becky

had walked a similar road so you saw

842

signs of, okay, I've seen this before.

843

Lacey: it was literally,

it was Halloween night.

844

My mom came over, my mom and dad

came over to help the kids go

845

trick or treating because I knew I

wasn't going to be able to make it.

846

And I was laying on the couch and

mom looked at me and she was like,

847

this is what Becky went through

And and that was my moment of,

848

oh, things are going to change.

849

that, that was, that's the

moment that I think about.

850

So yes.

851

It also has made me, I was so judgmental

of Becky and I didn't even realize it.

852

And of course I was, right?

853

I was judging my, I'm judging myself,

And there are just so many times that

854

now that I think back, I'm like, man.

855

I really wish I could

have been better for her.

856

I could have been there for her better

or believed her better or been less

857

about myself in a certain situation.

858

Like I

859

Emma: But look at your age at that time.

860

I know.

861

We were at a very selfish age.

862

Yeah.

863

Where we were living our lives.

864

Lacey: I just, yeah.

865

So I do think about that

866

but it is also nice to be able to

text someone and be like, Hey, did

867

you have to take this medicine?

868

Did it make you feel like a crazy person?

869

did your heart race constantly?

870

Oh, okay.

871

I'm going to stop taking it then.

872

Emma: We're not going to go this route

873

Lacey: Yeah, we're going to

learn from your mistakes.

874

thanks for going through it first.

875

it's actually the episode I recorded

before this one was with Becky.

876

And it's called Being the Chaos Friend.

877

Emma: What?

878

Lacey: And talking about being the

person, because the one, because I saw

879

this thing about, being, like having

a chaos friend, and as soon as I read

880

it, I was like, oh shit, I am the chaos

881

Emma: You are?

882

I

883

Lacey: I am

884

Emma: now.

885

Okay, I was about to

886

Lacey: I have not always

been the chaos friend.

887

No.

888

I have shifted into the chaos friend.

889

friend where I feel like any time I

talk to someone, I'm like, yeah, yeah,

890

I passed out last week, but it's okay.

891

I will say Becky's like

breaking bones left and right

892

and shit.

893

I'm not that, but it's when we moved

and then my dog died and, oh, my grandma

894

died earlier in the year and, oh, and

then we all got sick and it's just

895

Emma: And then his appendix and then

this daycare and then all of the

896

Lacey: things.

897

Yeah.

898

so that's what I, and because what

it is that my threshold of being able

899

to just handle it has lowered, right?

900

I have a chronic illness.

901

I can't just handle

902

my

903

dog dying and not, it not be

a really big deal for me, or.

904

my husband , having appendicitis

and having to get his appendix out.

905

No, that upends my life

because of my chronic

906

illness.

907

And so when I read it, I was like,

oh shit, I'm the chaos friend.

908

And I, And then I had this moment where

I was like, who's my OG chaos friend?

909

It's my

910

Emma: big sister.

911

She started that.

912

Lacey: I have not always

been the chaos friend.

913

And she and I actually talked about this,

how a lot of her stuff is outward facing.

914

messages about her and how that

affected her, whereas mine's very

915

inward facing of, like, push it

down, push it down, push it down.

916

and so it's just interesting how those two

things, even though they affected us from

917

different directions, had a big impact.

918

Emma: I think that's the interesting

part about friendship, though, is I

919

think at different phases of life,

everybody will be the chaos friend.

920

Lacey: five years ago, would you have ever

921

thought I

922

would be the

923

Emma: would be your best

924

Lacey: no,

925

No.

926

Never.

927

No.

928

I

929

Emma: think we've both had

times in our life, though,

930

remember when you broke your arm?

931

Lacey: I do.

932

I broke my arm several

933

Emma: times.

934

Yep.

935

and then you got hit by a

936

car.

937

I did.

938

Yeah.

939

I don't know, like I feel like that

big chunk of my life when I was going

940

through the divorce and moving out on

my own and trying to literally keep

941

my head afloat, that was my chaos time

where anytime I talked to anybody,

942

it was just like, Oh, how you doing?

943

And it's after a while it's I don't

like, can it not be about me right now?

944

Like I want to talk about something else.

945

Yeah.

946

Yeah.

947

Lacey: I don't want to have to recount

948

All of it.

949

Emma: Yes.

950

It's like retelling the same

951

Lacey: that's why I literally, I

think at one point on Facebook,

952

I posted don't ask me how I am.

953

If you want to know, listen to the

954

I don't want to talk about it

955

Emma: anymore.

956

I know.

957

and it's exhausting.

958

It's

959

Lacey: exhausting.

960

And yeah, I don't know.

961

I will.

962

I do think it's funny.

963

Cause I do think growing up, If

someone was more of the chaos

964

friend, it would have been you.

965

Emma: Absolutely.

966

Absolutely.

967

Lacey: I have always been pretty

968

Emma: You are very steady.

969

But it's funny because opposites attract.

970

So my husband is the most

steady person on the planet.

971

And the reason I'm attracted to

him is because he is so steady.

972

Lacey: Joe's very steady

973

Emma: too.

974

That consistent.

975

Who knew that football

players are not sexy?

976

Consistent engineers is where it's at.

977

Lacey: actually , feeling safe

with someone and knowing what's

978

going to happen with them?

979

did you know that's possible?

980

Emma: Yeah.

981

Did you know?

982

I

983

don't need you to bring me home flowers.

984

I need that you are going to

unload the dishwasher every time

985

Lacey: I can have feelings and you aren't

going to be mad at me for having feelings?

986

Oh my gosh.

987

Now, are you overwhelmed by them?

988

Yes.

989

Of

990

course.

991

But we can work that

992

out.

993

Emma: Passion with passion

doesn't really work.

994

One passionate Yeah.

995

Lacey: and it could work, but

you both have to be able to flex.

996

And I think that's, yeah.

997

Yeah.

998

I don't

999

Emma: know.

It's a whole different ballgame.

Lacey: It really is.

It really is.

I should actually try to wrap this up.

Thanks for joining me today, Emma.

Emma: Oh, this was truly one of the

best days I've had in a long time.

Thank

Lacey: you.

I'm glad I'm glad that

we just got to chat.

Emma: I know.

It was so fun recounting my childhood,

Lacey: honestly.

I know, I didn't realize how much I needed

Emma: that.

I know.

So many good

Lacey: Yeah,

because I've been really focused

on the not great parts lately.

And so to be like, yeah, no, things

are really lovely in so many ways.

Emma: And how can I make

sure my kids have this much

Lacey: fun?

Yes.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

and then also, thanks for

being my lifelong friend.

Emma: It's my joy.

Lacey: Yeah.

All right.

Thanks, Emma.