The Value of Listening: Insights from Deb Porter

Hello no shame in the home gamers.

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Editing Laci here to give you a

quick update on what's going on.

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After weeks of chaos I have

moved into my house and ready to

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jump back into being shameless.

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Thank you for your patience while we

got everything up and running again.

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This is the start of our

In Between Seasons content.

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You're going to hear

from us every other week.

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One episode will be an expert in a area

or topic, and then the next episode will

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be Sarah and I talking about it and how we

will use their knowledge moving forward.

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We're starting to work on

season two, and we'll update

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you when we get things rolling.

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We are still accepting applications

for season two participants if you're

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looking for help, and you can get that

at no shame in the home game dot com.

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All right, let's jump into the episode.

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Welcome to No Shame in the Home

Game, the podcast that caress how

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your house feels and not looks.

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I'm Lacey and I'm just a an ornament.

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Today I am here to listen to our

experts as far as co-hosts go.

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Speaking of experts, we have Sarah,

who is our knowledgeable co-host.

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Hi Sarah.

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Sara: Hi, Lacey.

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Oh, I'm so happy on Mondays.

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'cause I know I get to see you.

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It's like my cookie, like after having to

eat my vegetables, I'm like, I get to see

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this afternoon.

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Lacey: Sarah, I'm gonna let you

drive this car down the road.

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Sara: Yes.

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So as we told our listeners after we

were done with our participants, we were

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gonna bring on some specialists to talk

about different subjects that would be

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helpful in home management, and especially

when you live with other people.

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So I met Deb Porter, who runs Hold

Hearing out Life Drama and works with

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people around Learning to listen, and

I met with Deb and the more I learned,

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the more I thought, oh my goodness.

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Every single one of my clients

would benefit from this knowledge.

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So I was very excited that Deb

was willing to come on and share

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what she knows and give some tips,

hopefully to some of our listeners.

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Because our home should be our

happy place where we come home

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to feel restored and renewed.

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And I think everybody knows those moments

where your home is not restorative, and

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sometimes listening has to do with it.

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So Deb, thank you for coming and if

you would like to introduce yourself to

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our audience and tell us a little bit

about your work and what lights you up.

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Deb: Thank you so much.

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I'm so excited to be here with you.

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What lights me up is listening.

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Isn't that strange, but it really does.

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I love to listen to people simply

because, when you really do

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that, people feel better after.

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And I just love that feedback of,

oh my God, I feel amazing now.

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So that's really what I'm about

is, hearing people where they're

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at and teaching people how to do

that because a lot of times people.

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I mean, 2% of people in our nation

have been taught to actively listen.

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That's not very many people, most

of us didn't get it in school.

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It wasn't taught, I mean, we were

told to sit down, be quiet in

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kindergarten, and then we were expected

to remember that when we went to first

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grade and second grade, et cetera.

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And it wasn't until I got into my

master's program that I actually

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learned, what it meant to really listen.

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Sara: And

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what, and could you give us, not

the master's level, definition,

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but could you tell us like what

does it mean to really listen?

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How do you, what's your elevator

pitch to people on that?

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Deb: the foundation of what I teach

is called the core of listening.

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And it's, it's an acronym.

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I use it as an acronym.

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So it helps people remember when

they're in those conversations.

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And, it stands for Calm Outcome.

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I.

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Relate and empathize, and we really

go deep, into this in our course

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that's being released on October 4th.

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Listen your way to deeper

connections, but we really go

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into what does it mean to be calm?

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What does it mean to set an outcome?

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How do you do that?

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How do you even do that?

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what does that mean?

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and then deeper into

relate and empathy as well.

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yeah.

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Sara: Oh my gosh.

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And so you said you, you went to

school for thi for this program,

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or how did you learn this?

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How did you learn this set

of tools and knowledge?

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Deb: my background is at, and my training

is actually as a United Methodist pastor.

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I have a 96, master divinity degree with

a specialization in care and counseling.

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That's my background.

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I left the church, pretty

early on after I started.

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I served a church

full-time for three years.

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I had a family member

that came out as gay.

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And during that same timeframe,

there was upheaval in the church.

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There were my colleagues were

being put on church trial because

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of marrying same sex, individuals.

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And that wasn't, Something I just knew

that if any, if my, family member ever

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came to me and said, will you marry me?

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I, my answer would've been yes, of course.

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My answer's yes.

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I realized that I should probably

not stay in the church if I

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didn't wanna lose my pension.

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And and all of the things that

I saw people losing, they lost

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their credentials, their pensions.

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it was horrific.

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so distressing.

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I can't even, and it was hard

to leave because I'd spent

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all this time in education.

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And I really have a

passion for helping people.

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And I thought that was the way I

was gonna do it, but whole doesn't.

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I don't need to have

religion be behind what I do.

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I really don't.

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It's not a, it's not a part

of what I'm practicing now.

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It's really just about helping people,

be better in their lives and have

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better relationships through listening.

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Sara: That's so great.

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Yeah, and that's

interesting as you say that.

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'cause it makes sense.

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When I think of people going to a

religious leader, it's often because they

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just need somebody to listen and hold.

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Space and

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so often we can't get those from,

you know, from family members.

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And so that's, it's an interesting,

it makes sense as a natural

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transition 'cause you are already

holding space for people and

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now you're doing it, like you said,

you're still doing it, but just

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not with the religious aspect.

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That's

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beautiful.

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Deb: Yeah, I really began to

understand, my husband was very

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ill for eight years critically ill.

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and it was during that time that

I really began to realize how many

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people aren't trained to listen.

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My family and friends, they really,

they wanted to help me, but they

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didn't know how to sit with or stay

in the midst of those really intense

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feelings of complexity and, Deep

sadness and all of those things.

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It was deep, it was hard.

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And instead they would offer me solutions

and they would try to fix and they would

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stumble into those common listening

mistakes that the course teaches about and

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and their hearts were in the right place.

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They loved me.

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They wanted to do, they wanted to help,

but without having the training, they

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didn't know how to stay in their center.

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They didn't know how to stay, keep

their own calm and not get pulled off.

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And I really.

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I saw a need for this already then,

and I think that was kind of bubbling

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and forming in my life during

that, that eight year timeframe.

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Yeah.

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Sara: And I don't know if you saw

Deb and the listeners can't see,

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but Lacey was adamantly nodding

her head as Deb was talking.

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So Deb, Lacey is dealing with a

chronic health condition, which is at

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the moment technically undiagnosed.

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But Lacey, I know if you wanna share

with Deb, I know you've really dealt with

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how do the people who love you show up.

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Lacey: I am still in my kind of like

sci discovery phase, but it's been

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almost a year now, which kind of blows

my mind of most likely I'm gonna,

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I'm down the road of potentially

getting, chronic fatigue syndrome,

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diagnosis, and it's a very difficult.

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disease to understand because it,

everybody's like, well, I'm tired.

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And it's it's a little bit different.

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You know, those kinds of things.

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And I've found the whole of it very

fascinating when it comes to support

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of people want to support you so badly,

but have no idea how to do it, and

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are actually a little afraid of it.

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Deb: Mm-hmm.

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Lacey: It's really funny to hear

you really zone in on listening.

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'cause I hadn't really thought

about that a whole lot before.

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I had really thought of support as like

a mo, almost like physically showing

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up, but not actually physically, but

just like showing up for someone.

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But you're right.

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You know when people are like . So

you're tired and it's I get so

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tired that my body can't move.

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So like it's a different level of tired

and it's so interesting how sometimes

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people get wrapped up in trying to

have empathy that they don't listen.

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And it's, it's an interesting

kind of dynamic that I've been

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thinking or thinking about a lot.

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and so to really zone in on

the listening aspect of it.

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You can probably hear my brain's

going a million miles a minute.

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Thinking of all the different

ways that it's oh my gosh.

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Yeah.

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Listening's part of this

listening's part of this.

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You know, I'm thing

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Deb: It is.

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It really is.

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Lacey: Yeah.

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Deb: so many people just, they

don't, they want to as you're

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experiencing as well, they want to,

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They wanna be there for you.

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They want to, but they miss.

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And, and then when you have an

experience where you've missed,

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then you have to do repair work,

And that's a whole other thing.

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Yeah.

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Lacey: And it's a very sensitive

subject, because it comes from such a

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place of love, but there are so many

things in the path that could get

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into somebody's way of this is how

I wanted, would want to get support.

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So I'm giving it that way and I think

listening really is at the core of it

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because, It's a complex process, right?

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And it takes a lot of give

and take support does.

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And so being able to actually listen

to the other person for both sides,

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you know, I think is a really big deal.

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Deb: Yeah, it is.

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If any of our listeners, might be dealing

with a chronic illness and have a spouse,

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I just wanna just really quickly share

a resource that was very valuable to me.

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The Well Spouse

association@wellspouse.org.

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if there's anybody out here listening to

this right now, maybe you guys could drop

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that in the show notes even at some point,

but I highly recommend that organization.

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It was a lifesaver for me.

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my

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Lacey: I'm literally pulling it up

right now because I wanna send it to

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my husband because it is, it's so hard

and I personally, . I'm the one that's

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sick, so I feel like people always

want to support me and I'm like, no.

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I'm figuring myself out.

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Support him.

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He needs the support and so I, I am like,

literally we will get off this call and

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I'll be like, Joe, come look at this

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So thank you.

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Thank you for the

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Deb: welcome.

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Lacey: and.

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Deb: Absolutely.

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It's a great recommend.

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it's a great place.

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It's a great place to land.

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When I made my first post there, I

was like, I feel like I'm a airplane

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crashing into this place, and I feel like

I'm gonna scatter in a million pieces,

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but I'm just gonna do this anyway.

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And so it was so poignant to be

able to have the other people in the

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group say, we've been where you are.

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We understand what you're going

through, and we're here to support you.

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It was so incredibly helpful.

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We're getting off topic now,

and I'm sorry, but I just.

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Sara: No,

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Lacey: No, we will take it.

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We'll

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Sara: we always say if anything that's

said helps one listener, that's all.

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I mean,

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that's

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Lacey: one Lacey that's gonna help one

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Sara: that's

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Lacey: least

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Sara: So there might be one person

that heard that recommendation.

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more than the Lacey.

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More than the one of

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Lacey, maybe one more person.

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Lacey plus one.

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so no, that's wonderful.

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I wanted to go back to, you were

talking about how when we're little

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kids, you know, you sit down in the

classroom and we're taught just follow,

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put your head down, don't make waves.

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So imagine.

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I love to imagine dream scenarios.

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Imagine we're taught how to

listen from day one in school.

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What would be the fundamental basics

that you would teach a six year old?

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And I'm just thinking,

oh, as a parent, yes.

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I wanna teach my child how to listen.

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So what, and this would

be a great starting point.

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So how, what would be your first

basics that you would share?

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Deb: With someone who's six.

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Okay.

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Oh, this is really good.

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nobody, I haven't thought all the way

through that yet, so I'm gonna, I just

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have to think back to my own kids.

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'cause I have two, my daughter is now 22.

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And my son is, 18.

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reaching back just a little ways.

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but the things, the beginning things

that I really tried to help them.

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So for example, when.

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when I, as an adult became

dysregulated, that is, I didn't

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have my own calm and control.

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I would try to help them understand,

look, I'm an example that comes to

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mind is, when my grandfather died,

I was upset and, my child wanted to

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listen and help me, but they weren't

really sure what to do because.

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I didn't usually, I wasn't

usually presenting like this.

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And they're like, ah.

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and beginning to teach them, that the

first thing to do is to just be calm.

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It's okay.

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It's okay if somebody's upset.

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And so how so to establish

that Calm in yourself.

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Why the other person's upset.

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It's okay.

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It's okay if they're angry.

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It's okay if it doesn't have

to pull you off your center.

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And so trying to teach a child at six,

that is something that you can do.

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and giving them examples when you're

upset starting I, and I think it's

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really important to start when you

are upset because then they can begin

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to understand and see, okay, then

this is what I do for this person.

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And so then, I want somebody

to do that for me too.

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when I was a child, Mr.

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Rogers is like my hero.

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Like when I first started the

business, I said I wanted to Mr.

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Rogers, the world.

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And I actually, not long ago, I had

a conversation with Dana Winters,

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who's now the, executive director

of the Fred Rogers Foundation.

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She's fantastic.

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and, anyway.

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she said, I just love it when people

make, Fred into a verb, because

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that's really what I wanna do is Mr.

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Rogers the world.

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She's I love that.

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I love that.

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And but if you think about Mr.

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Rogers, if from your own experience, I

think you guys are probably old enough.

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Yeah.

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If I say Fred Rogers, you .you

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watch the show.

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and you know how he would,

always make that eye contact and

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be right there with somebody.

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And you know how he had that

soft, gentle, approach to just be

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present when Fred was listening.

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He was so present.

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And so really doing that with your

child to model that then help them

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to know, oh, that's something that I

should do too, like my kids do that

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because that's what I taught them.

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Like I showed them by my own

actions, through my own listening.

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This is what it looks like.

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And so they do that for others.

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It's beautiful now as.

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Sara: Oh God.

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I mean, I'm just like, that's enough.

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if everyone in the world could

do that one step to be present.

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and that, I think that's so important.

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If somebody else is, you know, feeling

emotions wherever they are, for you

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to be centered and to know that you

don't have to fix it right away.

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You don't have to match their emotions.

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I think sometimes we feel as though.

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Something's on fire.

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I should be running around with my

head, you know, like on fire too.

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You know, that's a skill to learn as well.

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I mean, how many wives know when

they start to tell their husbands

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and they just want their husbands

to listen and their husbands going

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into problem solving mode, and you're

like, no, I just want you to listen.

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But they wanna solve it.

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They wanna fix it, they

want it to be better.

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And so it's just thinking, wow,

if everyone just did that one

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step world would be amazing,

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Deb: I know.

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imagine applying the whole core.

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I know, right?

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Sara: And when you say

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Mr.

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Rogers, I instantly feel that calm.

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He's list like even

though I never met him.

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Yeah.

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I'm like, oh yes.

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As a kid I felt like he was

really listening to me, like

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showing up for me and that's

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amazing.

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Oh,

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I love that.

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thinking about families and it can

be any mix of, you know, just people

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living together in a home, whatever

that organization looks like.

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Thinking about the conflict that

comes out of all those situations, the

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dishes, the laundry, the picking up,

the trash, the, you know, all that.

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Home management.

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So if you were to, if you were to have

a family come to you, There's just

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tension around all the home management.

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How would you start with a family to

start them to understand how to listen

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or even to understand why it's important?

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How would you start to

introduce that topic?

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Deb: I think it's important to

know that, In any relationship,

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this is true and this is true.

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So you have your truth and the

other person has their truth.

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And so this is the power of, and I've

written about this a lot, the power

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of and so to be able to really get

somewhere a lot of times when we're coming

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into the conversation and something's

not getting done, and so we're upset

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when we can really try to understand

my truth is this, what's your truth?

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And this is your truth.

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And neither one of them are wrong.

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They're just different.

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allowing that to be present can a lot of

times help them to find the common ground

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when you really step back and understand,

okay, this is really where they're at.

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But if we're upset ourself, that's why

we need somebody to listen to us because

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it brings down that emotional regulation.

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It.

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we, we become calm again.

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Then we can actually hear

another person's perspective.

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that has to be established first.

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I do not recommend anyone have a

conversation unless they are calm

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to start with, that is the number

one thing you need to be calm.

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Lacey: So that means going

to bed angry is okay.

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because then you can be calm and

have the conversation the next day.

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That's just one of my biggest things is

when people tell married couples don't

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go to bed angry, and I'm like, no, I

wanna go to bed angry so that we can

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have a more productive conversation.

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Deb: Yeah, ex.

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Exactly.

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It's important to be able to

come back to a conversation.

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That's why we hit the pause button.

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I teach

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that in the course too.

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It's so important to teach po to

how do you pause a conversation?

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What are the steps to do that?

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how do you do that in a way so

that you can come back to the

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conversation, actually have it

be productive the next time?

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That's just so important.

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You gotta know how, actually in our

last, somebody's, some listeners,

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it's in our blog post from this,

this last weekend, how to hit pause.

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Sara: and I wanna come, oh, pause.

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I actually wanna come back to that,

but real quickly, 'cause Lacey knows

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one of our participants from last

season, participant Sarah, who also

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has a chronic health issue and has

dealt with a lot in her family.

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She taught me something so important

on that note of going to bed angry.

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She said, when you are tired,

nothing that you say or anybody

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else say matters in the sense that

go to bed, like it doesn't count.

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Like this conversation is not productive.

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It doesn't count.

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I.

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You can't actually it like you have

to, like Lacey said, go to bed,

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come back when you're arrested.

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And that has been a huge game changer

for me because at the end of the

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day, like between dinner and going

to bed, I call 'em night cranky.

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Everyone in my house calls

'em, they're my night cranky.

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I can't, I really can't have

any productive conversations.

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So if anything of conflict comes

up, I'm like, I hear Sarah Berry

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in my head going, it doesn't count.

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Don't do, it doesn't just

don't even try to participate.

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It doesn't count.

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and it's helped me.

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So I love what you said about

hitting the pause button again.

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If kids learned this in school,

can you imagine if they realize

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they're escalating and they're

like, oh, we're both escalating.

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Neither one of us is actually listening.

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What

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is, so hitting the pause

button is important.

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So really quickly, what's one tool

that our listeners can use that

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something you put in your blog post

about hitting the pause button?

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Deb: It's important to return

to the conversation later.

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You can't just hit the pause button and

then never go back, because then what

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happens is you get this

emotional baggage that.

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Starts to develop, and that's not better.

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So you have to learn how to hit the

pause button, but then come back.

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That is the key component.

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absolutely.

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Hit pause, hit the reset button

as Abraham Hicks would say,

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as your friend here would say.

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Absolutely.

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Sarah was it,

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the other person on the pot, Sarah.

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yeah, I agree with her.

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you wanna make sure you hit that reset

button and get what you need so that

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you can come back to the conversation.

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And then when you start,

so here's another tip.

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When you, if you're trying to

get back into the conversation,

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this is how you can do it.

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So yesterday I heard you say,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And I heard you feel this way about it.

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I've had some time to rest and I'm

now in a place where I can hear you.

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can we continue the conversation?

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It's that simple.

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It does not have to be hard.

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It's just, it's that simple.

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and then keep hold of your calm.

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If you lose your calm again, you're

gonna be like, Nope, And I think

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this is what's so beautiful is.

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I'm an expert.

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This happens to me.

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I have to hit pause.

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This is like I'm trained to

do this and I still there.

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I mean, when my son told me he wanted

to go into the National Guard, Lost

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my cool and, but because he and I

have been in a relationship for all

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of these years, he could see it.

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He could feel it.

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He knew I wasn't hearing him.

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He wasn't happy 'cause

I wasn't hearing him.

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And you know, I had to say,

look, I'm gonna have to come

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back to this conversation.

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He's that's a good idea.

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Let's do that And he like welcomed

that because, but by this time

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he understands and he knows that

it gets better when I've had

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time to do my own work to calm down.

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Sara: and do you go, I don't even

know if it's important to have the

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conversation, but I know there's a,

there's different parts of the brain,

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so Right when you're getting amped up in

that cortisone cortisol and everything,

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you're not even thinking with the

logical part of your brain, right?

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Like you've, you're physically

in the wrong, you're not being

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rational and calm, you're being.

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Under attack.

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I'm being reactive.

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I'm gonna throw all the daggers at once.

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So it's if there's like a

brain science logic to walking

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away

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Deb: Yeah.

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And the amygdala gets activated

and there's no access to

478

the prefrontal cortex.

479

Exactly that.

480

Yes.

481

Sara: Oh,

482

the,

483

Deb: people want the science.

484

Sara: I think it's, I think

it is important for some

485

people to hear the science.

486

Because otherwise it can just sound

a little, oh, because so and so

487

is saying, and it's no, actually.

488

'cause our, all of our brains function

pretty similarly in that different parts

489

of our brains have different points.

490

And so some people I feel like,

need that logic and reason

491

in order to get that buy-in.

492

So I think that's, I think that's great.

493

I think, again, if all of this could

be taught in school, I just think

494

it would be such a beautiful place.

495

This world would be so different.

496

Deb: the book, what Happened

to You by Oprah Winfrey and Dr.

497

Bruce Perry actually goes into

that science in the most beautiful

498

way that's accessible to any level

of education that I've ever seen.

499

I highly recommend it.

500

There's already been

millions of copies sold.

501

It's a great book if you're

trying to understand what that

502

actually looks like in the brain.

503

it's specifically written towards

trauma, but anytime you have drama the

504

same process is going on in the brain.

505

So it's really good.

506

Highly recommend it.

507

Sara: And that brings up, I

mean, I just had this thought

508

while you were talking about how.

509

the no shame in the home game is about

managing a home and how we, we highlight,

510

we're not taught how to do this.

511

Like previous generations

we're kind of thrown into it.

512

we're dealing with these situations

that we don't have the tools for.

513

And I just realized with the work

that you do, yeah, we end up in

514

these households are families.

515

We end up with all these other people.

516

We're not taught these skillset, we

don't know, you know, how are you gonna

517

dig out of it if you're never taught?

518

And so you just keep repeating

these patterns of conflict and

519

tension and you know, and that

just keeps building and building.

520

And yeah, I'm like, oh my, I just keep

thinking, yeah, this is everybody.

521

Everybody's gonna learn this.

522

This is so how, if people

want, if people are.

523

Listening and they're like, oh

my gosh, I need this in my life.

524

How do people work with you?

525

What are the different ways that

you can connect with your audience?

526

Deb: If somebody needs like free options,

let's talk about that really quick.

527

So we have our blog on the website,

that's available to you right now.

528

There's a free course, it's called

Runaway Freight Train Brain.

529

If you have a brain that's super,

super active and you find it really

530

hard to stay focused in a, in a

conversation that's, it's a mini

531

course, but it's available now.

532

our blog is another way.

533

So all of those and on social media

we're everywhere, but just pick your

534

favorite platform and search hearing out.

535

Life drama will pop up.

536

we post everywhere.

537

In terms of, a paid opportunity, if

somebody has a situation that, oh my

538

God, I just want this woman to listen

to me because she sounds fantastic.

539

I do that and I have a, I've

trained a team of people to do

540

that, and so you can just be heard.

541

So you can book a time in 15, 30 or 45

minutes, depending on how much you need

542

to say, and we will listen without giving

advice unless we're specifically asked.

543

Te of what we do when we listen is

it's, we're not gonna tell you what we

544

think you should do unless you really

wanna know what we think and then

545

we'll, but otherwise we just don't.

546

'cause a good listener doesn't do

that And then, of course we have, I

547

mentioned our course that's launching

on October 4th, and that's, listen

548

your way to deeper connections.

549

that's a little bit bigger buy-in.

550

It's, $247, as we launch it.

551

that's the price point.

552

But I feel like from the feedback

that we've gotten, that's a reasonable

553

price to ask people, and it's

a worthwhile investment because

554

it impacts your personal life.

555

It impacts your professional life.

556

If you're a life coach, whoever.

557

I mean, it's a really impactful

course according to the

558

people that have taken it.

559

So

560

we had beta testers.

561

Sara: that is so beautiful.

562

I love that.

563

As you were talking with the free course

about staying focused in a conversation.

564

It dawned on me because I worked

with somebody who's an executive

565

functioning coach who we're

gonna have on in another episode.

566

Are you able to work with people who maybe

have some neurodiversity, some cha, like

567

it's more of an uphill battle, or do you

feel like this can apply to everyone?

568

how do you deal in those kind of

unique circumstances like that?

569

Deb: Absolutely.

570

if there's somebody that

is neurodiverse yes.

571

Two of my best friends

have kids with autism.

572

And so I've walked around in that

world along for many years and I am

573

familiar, even though it's not my own

personal experience, I've, I've walked

574

among, among that and I understand

the, challenges that can arise.

575

very compassionate.

576

Towards that.

577

can I help?

578

Absolutely.

579

I mean, a lot of times, it's just

about finding the right tool to

580

be able to know when I'm in this

situation, then I do this, that,

581

that can help those, those folks out.

582

Sara: Yes.

583

Oh my gosh.

584

I'm just looking at all my notes.

585

I've been, if you see me looking

down, it's because I'm just writing

586

all these notes down and I'm like,

what do I wanna come back to?

587

Lacey: I ask a quick question?

588

Sara: course.

589

Yes.

590

Lacey: I'm curious about

how this would differ.

591

. I mean, I know 'cause I've been in

therapy, but I imagine that might be a

592

question that you get often as far as

how this looks different than therapy.

593

Deb: Absolutely.

594

So we're not life coaches

and we're not therapists.

595

we're really clear about

both of those things.

596

in fact, we will not take any client more

than six times in a rolling calendar year

597

because we don't wanna get into that.

598

Ther a therapeutic alliance

forms about that sixth.

599

appointment time.

600

there's a whole trust piece

that comes aboard, about, it's

601

a concept therapeutic alliance.

602

if people aren't familiar with

it, it's really how you get

603

to the next phase of therapy.

604

So anyway, we're not that and,

if people need that, we obviously

605

wanna help them get there.

606

but if finances are a problem, or maybe

you're even in therapy and you just

607

can't make it to your next session,

if you just needed like, Oh my God.

608

I need somebody to hear this.

609

Certainly when I was in the throes of

caregiving, sometimes I needed that

610

Lacey: Well, I,

611

I was thinking about myself like,

the listeners have heard my husband,

612

we've been on a thing together and I

think he's the greatest person in the

613

world, and I'm always very thoughtful

of, of course we have issues and you

614

know, all those different things 'cause

we're human and we're living together.

615

But I, I have this very visceral reaction.

616

Like whenever I talk about him

with people in our world, I want

617

to be his defense attorney as well.

618

Of but no, see, he's wonderful.

619

He's all of these things.

620

And so then I'm spending

a lot of my energy.

621

. Defending him while I'm

trying to get my point across.

622

And it's not satisfying.

623

So I know for me, I'm like, oh, that

would be great just to be like, I gotta

624

vent about Joe . You know, just get

it out and then be able to move on and

625

be done with it and not feel like I've

tainted somebody else's view on him in

626

a very un what I would think is unfair.

627

So that's, as soon as you were

talking, I'm like, that's, yes.

628

That would be great.

629

Deb: That's what I do.

630

and that's what I do.

631

And that's very different than therapy.

632

When you're in

633

therapy, trying to unravel

a specific problem.

634

When you're in therapy, you're trying

to say, okay, I'm aware I have this

635

behavioral pattern and it's not working

for me, and I'm stuck here and I need

636

help figuring out how to be different.

637

I wanna make this life change.

638

And I'm just not sure.

639

a life coach is all about I'm at point

A, I wanna get to point B, and they're

640

about helping you get from point A to

point B and cheering you on while you

641

do it, and giving you maybe some things

that you didn't know to get you there.

642

what I'm doing is entirely

different altogether.

643

It's outsourcing your best

friend just for a little bit.

644

Yeah.

645

Sara: I am actually, I'm writing

646

that

647

Lacey: I, I think that's really

648

Sara: that's brilliant.

649

Outsourcing

650

Lacey: I know.

651

Sara: because I know I have been in.

652

We call it the deep hole

of life sometimes, right?

653

And you do you out, you go to, you tap

on your friends, but you do get to a

654

point where you've been in that hole

for so long where you think, oh, am I

655

gonna start to fizzle out this friendship

because I'm burning it too hard?

656

So to have that kind of outlet, To be

like, oh, this person, I'm not worried

657

about what's on the other side of this.

658

I can just do a big old dump.

659

Because yeah, sometimes you just

need to just get it off your chest

660

and it feels so much lighter.

661

But yeah, but without taxing those

relationships in your life that

662

you

663

Lacey: Or a stranger.

664

I feel like I'm always the stranger,

that gets the dump out of nowhere

665

and I'm like, I was just sitting here

666

Deb: I was just in line at RA's,

or I was just sitting in the

667

chair getting my hair cut and my

poor hairdresser just got, yeah.

668

They actually, I've actually had

conversations with them about my business

669

and they're like, oh my God, I would

love to give your card out to people who.

670

But they're like, I don't know

how to do that without seeming,

671

Sara: now that you say that

though, think about it.

672

A bartender, a hairdresser.

673

These are

674

all places, a taxi cab

driver where you feel

675

as though, oh, I can tell them anything.

676

And you.

677

Like back to that religious figure,

oh, I can just get off my chest

678

and they're not gonna judge me.

679

I'm not threatening our relationship.

680

'cause it's, you know, it's,

there's a lot more freedom there.

681

And, oh yeah.

682

I'm just, this is so beautiful of

a service of the listening and then

683

teaching other people how to listen.

684

When you said, back in earlier you

said about this, the listening mistakes

685

and this, you know, the cycle of

not listening leads to repair work.

686

And I'm like, oh my gosh,

that's, I can see it.

687

You know, just, you were talking

about like then the emotional baggage.

688

And it just gets deeper and heavier.

689

So to people listening to this, what is

a common listening mistake that somebody

690

might be able to kind of key into and.

691

Make some steps forward

to be a better listener.

692

Deb: let's just take the one

that we've talked about most.

693

It's been, it's come up a couple of

times in the conversation already.

694

It's the fixing one.

695

it's fixing, right?

696

So I'm listening to you and I can

see the answer to your problem, and

697

I don't understand why you don't

see the answer to your problem.

698

So here it is.

699

So that's really, one of

the pro the primary ones.

700

and how do you stop doing that?

701

so learning is a process and so

you, You're not gonna just say,

702

oh, I don't wanna fix anymore, and

just automatically stop doing it.

703

You have to learn.

704

And so it's about, okay, maybe

somebody points it out to you once

705

and says, Hey, you're doing this

behavior, could you maybe not do that?

706

and then suddenly you hear it and

you're like, oh, I guess I did do that.

707

And so that's the first step

because that's awareness.

708

You have to have awareness before

you can make a life change.

709

And okay, so now we have, now

we're working with awareness.

710

And so then, the next piece would be,

maybe you're listening to somebody

711

and, you Catch yourself starting

to do it like in the process.

712

And so that's like the next step.

713

But you've already stumbled into it.

714

You're already I with her

and you're like, ah, crap.

715

didn't make that change.

716

Right.

717

So that's okay.

718

and one of the things I just really

wanna like validate for people is you

719

don't have to, none of us gets to.

720

All of the time, it's okay to be

human, it's okay to make mistakes,

721

but always, I try to be better.

722

Like I always, I wanna be better.

723

I wanna do better every time.

724

we know better, we do better.

725

This is like a foundational thing that

my business partner, Lynn and I, we.

726

That's how we live.

727

Okay.

728

So now we've, we're aware, okay,

we're not gonna try and, we're

729

in the midst of the conversation.

730

So now we have to take

it the next step further.

731

So now there's awareness.

732

Before I even start the conversation, now

you're to where I really want you to be.

733

That is, before we're even gonna

enter into any of this conversation,

734

we're gonna say, okay, I know I am.

735

I might do this, and so I'm really gonna

pay attention when I'm listening to make

736

sure I don't, and so I'm gonna apply

then the core of the knowledge that I've

737

learned, and I'm gonna make sure that

I'm following those steps and not doing

738

Sara: That's, no, that is beautiful.

739

I learned to do that with my, so

first of all, I'm a problem solver.

740

I love to see solutions and I

love, I get a thrill out of helping

741

people, and I've had to learn that I.

742

Not everybody wants to hear solutions and

that's been a good life lesson for me.

743

And so I've learned with my son

if I see something and you know,

744

as a parent, it's clear as day.

745

And if it's not a safety

thing, he's not gonna get hurt.

746

Sometimes I'll say, would you like a

suggestion on how to problem solve this?

747

And often he'll say No.

748

Thank you.

749

Okay.

750

Sometimes he'll come back an hour

later or a day later and say, what?

751

How would you do this?

752

And sometimes in the moment he'll say,

yeah, actually I have no idea what to do.

753

But I'm like, oh my gosh.

754

That tension of me forcing a solution

on him and him pushing back because

755

he wants to try to fix it his own way.

756

And it's, and then I don't get

mad and I can be like, whatever.

757

he'll ask me if he wants an idea.

758

But that's been a huge

game changer for me.

759

So I'm thinking about an example of,

I'm just thinking of common frustrations

760

Lacey: Can I give Sarah, can I

give you a compliment real quick?

761

She's, she does that as a friend

and a business partner too.

762

She's always so good at saying, Hey.

763

Can I reframe that for you?

764

Or, Hey, are you open to a suggestion?

765

and I really appreciate that as a friend

and a business partner personally.

766

So not just with your son.

767

I, you do it in a lot of places,

768

Deb: And

769

honestly, people won't hear you.

770

People won't be able to take in if you

haven't asked them that they won't.

771

They won't, they're not ready.

772

And so I just, that's exactly what

I, what you've just described there

773

with your son is exactly what I

teach people to do is exactly that.

774

Because if they're ready, then they, you

then you've established that they're open

775

and ready to take in what you're saying

as opposed to just, not being ready.

776

Sara: and then I was picturing a co,

I was picturing a common scenario with

777

household tension that I deal, you know,

that I see people Dealing with, and I've

778

dealt with, is the overtaxed person in

the household who's doing most of the

779

majority of things and they're frustrated

and they're overwhelmed, and so they

780

might turn to a family member and, oh,

you never pick up your socks, and Oh,

781

I asked you to do that a million times.

782

And I just pictured while you

were talking, what if that person

783

who was receiving that just

turned and said, I hear you.

784

I hear you.

785

That must be really frustrating.

786

And just like how, I was like, oh,

wow, that would really change the

787

tone of the rest of that conversation.

788

instead of being

789

defensive, instead of jumping up and

doing it instead of fighting back.

790

Oh, I hear you.

791

But actually hearing them, not just

saying it as like a trick or a,

792

you know, to get out a free card.

793

But yeah,

794

that would be beautiful too.

795

Oh my gosh.

796

I almost feel like this would be a

great package to give couples who are

797

moving in together or getting married,

learning how to listen so that you'll

798

enjoy each other a little

bit more as the years go on.

799

Lacey: for my niece's graduation, I

gave her an investing class like here.

800

So I'm all for that.

801

. I think that's a great idea because

like I, because I told her, I'm

802

like, no one taught me about this,

and you have the power right now to

803

make the biggest impact possible.

804

So here you go.

805

And so I, I agree.

806

I think that's a much better gift than

807

The fourth toaster that they didn't

register for , you're gonna get

808

something they didn't register for.

809

That's a good way to go.

810

Sara: Yes.

811

Yes.

812

'cause you're taking all of that lack of

not knowing how to listen to people and

813

then putting that together when at the end

of the day, we all just wanna be heard.

814

But thinking of your services,

it's if you both wanna be heard and

815

neither one of you can hold space to

listen, then it's like you both make

816

a 15, 20 minute phone call to hold.

817

Get it out.

818

Let your emotional center come down,

So we're gonna pause this and we're

819

both gonna call Deb and her partner to

bring our emotional centers back down.

820

Deb: I do have to tell our listeners,

just in case somebody thinks, you do

821

have to book online and we do call reach

out to call you simply because I had

822

a really, I had a learning experience

and we'll just leave it at that.

823

I had a learning experience and I learned

that I need to be the one to in initiate

824

the call, because I need to have the

little box check that Yes, you agree

825

to, to our consent and our legal ease.

826

I got myself into situ.

827

I'm not gonna say anymore

about that, but yeah.

828

So I'll call you.

829

Sara: Okay, so the, so it

goes, we're both tense.

830

We're having this, we need to

push pause, let's go book a call.

831

And after

832

we've had time, To talk with our listener.

833

We can come back and hold

healthy space for each other.

834

Yes.

835

which

836

gives you even more time for your

cortisol levels to calm down.

837

What do you do?

838

So this is interesting.

839

So let's say you're having a conversation.

840

You realize you need to push pause.

841

Then how do you have any tips or

recommendations about how do you

842

then bring your emotional center

back to regulation from that?

843

Deb: Yeah.

844

one of the best ways is get

physical, 'cause it allows

845

it to work out of your body.

846

'cause we're talking about chemicals

that are actually in our body.

847

So if you can, and I understand Lacey,

for you, that might not be possible.

848

So for you, maybe I'd suggest

journaling, but if somebody could be

849

physical, definitely go do that yet.

850

Take a walk, whatever.

851

Even petting the dog can be something

that's calm, something some animal

852

that's already centered and you

know, already aligned just borrow

853

some of theirs for a little bit, but

those things can definitely help.

854

Sara: Oh, that's beautiful.

855

I learned that inadvertently during the

pandemic when I was homeschooling my son.

856

And before I let the teacher

know, Hey, this is not healthy for

857

anyone's mental health in our house,

so I'm not gonna be doing this.

858

Before I made that statement, there

was a day where things had just,

859

there were so many slamming doors and

crying, and it just wasn't going well.

860

And I remember in the moment, I

just, I said, put on your shoes.

861

And he's like, where are we going?

862

I said, put on your shoes.

863

And I just grabbed the dog and

him and we just started walking.

864

Where are we going?

865

Just keep walking.

866

And I was like, I had no

idea what the answer was.

867

All I knew was we couldn't sit

in the house 'cause we were just

868

rehashing the same argument.

869

All I, and you know, it was covid,

we couldn't even go anywhere.

870

So I was just like, I don't

know, we're just gonna walk.

871

And then we just walked until we.

872

I could feel that we

873

both were, and oh my gosh, I'm just crying

because it was so hard and we were stuck.

874

We were just stuck.

875

Every day became the same.

876

And you know what?

877

We walk almost every single day now and

we, even if we're not tense, we just walk.

878

And I hear the most from

my son when we're walking.

879

and and even the other day we came

home from something and I was, I

880

knew I was not in a healthy mindset

and my, and I just said to my

881

husband, I'm gonna go walk the dog.

882

I don't, I'll be back at some point.

883

I don't know.

884

But it was just like, I knew nothing

good was gonna come out of my mouth.

885

yeah.

886

And yeah, even if I could

just pet the dog and just get

887

Deb: that's really great self-awareness.

888

And I'll just say that I have also

been a homeschooling parent, so I

889

know exactly the slamming doors and

the frustration you're talking about

890

it, it was a real thing for sure.

891

Yeah.

892

Sara: Oh yeah.

893

So much good stuff.

894

Oh, I just, I feel so inspired and

happy by your work that it exists,

895

that you're planting this seed

that is for just so much goodness.

896

I'm really excited and I am so

thankful we had this conversation.

897

Lacey, do you have any

other questions for Deb?

898

Lacey: I have a thousand and so

that's why I'm trying to decide.

899

I always have so many questions.

900

I feel like a lot of times we

give resources to the spouse who

901

is what we would call the home,

c e o, the one who's in it more.

902

Would, do you have any like tips for

maybe someone who is more of a supporting

903

role in their household of like, how

can they listen to someone who has

904

a lot of stuff going in their mind?

905

'cause I think a lot of times, When we

think of traditionally, it's maybe like

906

an overworked mom and that kind of thing.

907

How do we give the tools to the people

around her to make her feel better?

908

I think is my question that I got there

in a little bit of a roundabout way.

909

Deb: That's okay.

910

I understood.

911

We

912

wanna give permission, we wanna

give permission for her to be

913

however she is, however she

feels in whatever moment it is.

914

And however messy that looks like.

915

Permission to simply be is permission to,

be seen, heard, and to know that you're,

916

that you matter and someone else's world.

917

And that's really powerful.

918

And when you do that, you'll notice

all of the relationships get better.

919

Lacey: I do notice that with my children

of like, when I can tell that they

920

feel very seen by me and that I'm like

in it on their level and that kind of

921

thing, and I'm not trying to correct

constantly, there really is that, that

922

moment of like, oh, we are connected and

their behavior changes rather quickly.

923

So

924

Deb: It.

925

It does.

926

Isn't that fantastic?

927

And because they have the answers

within themselves, they just need

928

to feel that, that piece of knowing

that you're there with them in it.

929

Yeah.

930

All of us have the answers

in their side ourself.

931

We just have to have the

ability to access it.

932

Sara: and I think that's so beautiful

what you said, because I was just thinking

933

about that, that typical overworked mom

managing a home, she's got her own job

934

to think about everyone in the house.

935

And there is that frustration

that overt tiredness and like you

936

said, to just to give permission,

to feel whatever's going on.

937

Thinking about those unhealthy loops

when the mom feels shame that they're

938

frustrated at their family, who they

should love, but they don't feel great.

939

And then if they don't feel as though they

can show up with whatever emotion they're

940

having, it just, it builds and it builds.

941

So that's, I think that's so beautiful

to just everyone who's listening.

942

If you do get in that position,

giving yourself permission.

943

This is

944

what I'm feeling right now.

945

And then if I can just give it space,

it'll probably dissipate faster than me

946

trying to bury it under other emotion.

947

just bury it.

948

just put some paint on it.

949

Just put a throw pillow on it.

950

Just light a candle.

951

Just bury it.

952

Lacey: recently told my mom, I was

like, did you know that if you just

953

feel your feelings, they go away faster?

954

And she was like, I

don't think that's right.

955

I'm like, yes.

956

Deb: and it was even more empowering

when I learned that's actually guidance.

957

Like when we feel something that's our

guidance I'm like, whoa, that's fantastic.

958

Yeah.

959

They go away so much faster.

960

Yeah.

961

Sara: Like you said, the answers

are inside of us, but we're not

962

taught to tap into that internal

guidance system we're taught.

963

No.

964

Listen to whoever's older than you

who's standing over you looking like

965

a position of authority, override

all of those feelings inside of you.

966

yes.

967

Deb: what happened to all of us.

968

Yeah.

969

Sara: And I love that.

970

Lacey, you had that realization and

then your mom, who, as you know,

971

had the same upbringing as us.

972

Yo, I don't think that's right.

973

Oh my gosh.

974

The

975

Lacey: I mean, she said it jokingly,

but in a, but you know, recognizing

976

that, yeah, that's not what we do,

977

Sara: this was on one of

our previous episodes.

978

I, we were sharing about, what was it?

979

Being, oh, toxic positivity.

980

And we were talking about, you know,

it's okay to embrace what's not great

981

and how I had growing up, if I was ever

sharing what was hard in my life, somebody

982

would come back to me and tell me about

somebody who had it harder than me.

983

So I went from feeling crappy

about my situation to feeling

984

sadness over somebody else's.

985

So my crappy just got buried.

986

you can't feel crappy 'cause

you don't have it as bad.

987

And so to Lacey's point, As an

adult, now I'm learning like, oh, I

988

get to feel this without comparing

it to somebody else's situation.

989

I get to just let it be and

that's okay, and that's enough.

990

oh my goodness.

991

Deb: That's another listening

mistake people make.

992

Sarah, that's exactly it.

993

That's that.

994

I would just point out that

right there, that's another one.

995

Yep.

996

Sara: Oh my God.

997

yeah, growing up I thought I wasn't

allowed to be upset about anything because

998

I wasn't starving because I wasn't

without clothes, because I wasn't,

999

you know, like I was like, oh, I guess

I'm, oh, I'm not supposed to be upset

because Because I don't have the worst.

And then I learned about something,

this is fast forwarding, but Grief

Olympics where people like wanna out

grief one another, It's no, we can

all have our own situations and they

just, they all exist independently.

Deb: This is true and this is

true, and I don't have to tell

you mine to be with yours.

I can just let that be over here and know

that's my truth and hold space with you

because I understand what that's like.

Sara: I love that you just bookended that.

We just, you brought it right back

to the beginning.

This is true, and this is true.

I, that's just, I feel like I wanna

say that in my family now, like all

the time, this is true and this is true

Deb: it's profound though.

I mean, think about the power.

If you teach your children

that, and they're involved,

think about their future.

if they really understand that in

their relationships, if they understand

that in their jobs, it's gonna be

profound for them, they're gonna

be able to function so much better

because they're not gonna go into every

place thinking I have to be right.

They're not gonna, they're not

gonna go into all of the, conflict.

They're gonna understand I can be

alongside you and let you have your own

opinion and still be okay inside of me.

That's powerful.

That's empowerment.

Sara: Deb, you are changing the world.

I am really excited.

For this ripple, it's all

about the ripple, right?

If you touch

five people, those five people

reach out to five more people.

I mean, it's a ripple and it's beautiful.

Please tell the listeners, and we'll

have this in the show notes, but please

tell everyone your website, how to follow

you, get in touch, all the good things.

Deb: So the website's hearing

out life drama.com , you can

sign up for newsletter and blog.

comes out weekly.

The newsletters once a month.

If you sign up for our free resource,

we have a resource right, available

right now rescuing a conversation.

it's, that's, that

resource is free sometimes.

You know, it starts to go

sideways and then what do you do?

It's helpful for that and talks somewhat

about the pausing that we touched on here.

but yeah, so anyway, the website,

you can, find those things

Sara: And,

Deb: Instagram, we're at

hearing out life drama.

TikTok, hearing out life drama.

Pinterest, we're a hold listener.

let's see, YouTube, I think

if you type in YouTube hearing

out life drama, we pop up too.

I think the official channels

hold listener on that one too.

But yeah.

Anyway,

Even on Snapchat.

I don't post a lot on Snapchat, but

we're there I'm there occasionally.

yeah, yeah.

Sara: Oh, that's beautiful.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for sharing this.

Thank you for making the world

a better place with your work.

This is