Welcome to No Shame in the Home Game, the podcast that cares

2

how your home feels, not looks.

3

I am Laci, your co host in, I don't

even know right now, in compliments.

4

I'm, Sarah and I were

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just talking about compliments.

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here with, one of my favorite

complimenters, my co host Sarah.

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Hi, Sarah.

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Sara: Lacey, I want to

celebrate how my house is.

9

Or not my house, my office

specifically, feels.

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I think we mentioned

the wallpaper last time.

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I finally got enough

wallpaper, finished the wall.

12

And now when I look in my little

screen of myself, makes me so happy.

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It just feels so warm and comforting

and it's everything I wanted.

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So I really worked on

the feels these past two

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Lacey: Look at you leaning into it.

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I also love that you like took little

things that you're like, I like

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this cause you took inspiration from

my wallpaper, but found one that

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felt more like you and like just

pulled in what made you feel good.

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I love it.

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Sara: Again, so much of my decisions

are on the back of your intrepidness.

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When I think wallpaper, I think permanent.

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And then you were so insisted,

no, it's just peel and stick.

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No, you can just lift it right back up.

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No, it's not hard.

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And I was like, Oh, okay.

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So I can do wallpaper without it

being like a lifelong commitment.

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, Oh, let's try this.

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even with my office, I keep trying things

and I'm like, Oh, I'm not getting married.

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I'm just trying things and

everything's an evolution.

30

We say that in the podcast,

it's for a chapter in your life.

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Lacey: For sure.

32

If there's anything that I'm good

at, it's yeah, let's just try it.

33

rubbing off on you in a positive way.

34

Sometimes, it's not always positive.

35

We were hanging a swing in our yard

on a tree and we'll just say, poor

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Joe did not like my let's try it ness.

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Sara: Did anyone get

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Lacey: No, no one got hurt.

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No one got hurt.

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He just.

41

was not happy with the process,

which, I don't blame him.

42

But, because I'm like one of those

people that's let's MacGyver this, right?

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what rope do we have?

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Do we have a string?

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perfect example, one of our wreaths

for Christmas, it's to this day

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still has old headphones as the

thing that hangs it up on the wall.

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that's what I used to create, the hanger.

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And I was like, yeah, that's what

I had at the time, that's what

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I needed, and it still works.

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Let's move on.

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Sara: love that.

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I see that as like a

reuse, reduce, recycle.

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I'm like, yeah, you had it and it

worked and you got to reuse something.

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That's awesome.

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Lacey: makes me giggle,

too, whenever we get it out.

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I'm like, oh, there's the headphones.

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, anyway, we are, we're wrapping

up Ashley's story today.

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This blows my mind that

we're already here.

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And again, this is another one of those

where Laci was sick, I wasn't there.

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Ashley and Sarah's final

episode is a, duo, not a trio.

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but I think what has been interesting

for me about Ashley's journey,

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and I know I've said this before,

is that it's about the tweaks.

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It's about the details.

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She's someone that can change.

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In my mind has it all together,

but doesn't feel like it because of

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these lingering tweaks and details.

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Sara: Yes, and highlighting what I just

said a few minutes ago about it being

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about different chapters in your life.

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It's her toy room with four

kids, four different ages.

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At one point, everything in

there was dictated by choking

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hazards and that's changed, right?

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And so it's evolving with the

different ages, which is a lot of work.

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And one of the things I will compare and

contrast with Ashley's episode versus

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Tom's Tyra and Teresa's was much more

concrete steps and Ashley's was a little

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bit more, I was going to say global,

but that feels like corporate speak.

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Lacey: Are we gonna circle back on it?

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Sara: circle back, it's a little bit

more talking about the principle of

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going through things, about teaching

kids ownership, , we discuss a little

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bit more of those moments where as

a parent, you're trying to show them

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how to do it, but not do it for them.

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And so I really like this

discussion because it highlights.

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All that part about parenting that

you didn't realize you were signing

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up for when you become a parent and

you're like, Oh, parenting is all these

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little things that we have to decide.

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Are we keeping these?

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Are we throwing these away?

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How much stuff are we

going to have in the house?

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So we do discuss it a little bit more

on a larger topic, which I always enjoy.

89

Lacey: Awesome sauce.

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let's jump on in to Ashley episode

3 and Wrap up Ashley's story.

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Mhm.

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Track 1: Welcome, Ashley.

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We've got episode three, no shame in

the home game to talk about your kid's

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playroom and hear how that's been going.

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But as we know, life happens, so

we can really catch up on just

96

whatever's on your mind, to be honest,

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I love it.

98

Well, I'm excited to be back.

99

It's going to be weird when

I don't hang out with you um,

100

anymore on a monthly basis.

101

But, we'll just have to keep that

going outside of the podcast.

102

Track 1: I was going to say, I'm

always up for conversation with

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you, no matter what that looks like.

104

So yeah, we could totally keep this up.

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I love hearing your point of view

and honestly, your sense of humor

106

is so unique that I really savor it.

107

Dark and twisted sometimes?

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A little dry?

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Track 1: You don't get a lot of

people with that dry sense of humor.

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I grew up watching British comedy

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Oh yeah.

112

Track 1: you really have to shift

your mindset to that kind of humor.

113

so When you lay it out there,

my brain is like, ping, ping,

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did that come from your family of origin?

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Or did you feel like the black sheep of

your family with that sense of humor?

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no, it's totally, it's

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totally my family of origin.

118

It is the, it's the Canadian in me.

119

a different style of humor.

120

Very dry.

121

and yeah, it's definitely

like I watch British TV and

122

it feels like a family reunion

123

,

Track 1: I had a totally different sense of humor than my family growing up.

124

And so British comedy was the first

time where I'm like, Oh, there

125

are other ways to be funny besides

with the people I'm surrounded by.

126

It, it really called to me.

127

So yeah, when I hang out with you,

I'm like, oh yeah, there it is.

128

That feels good.

129

That feels really good.

130

I hope I can live up to it.

131

Try my best.

132

Pull out my material.

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Track 1: just be you, just

be, it'd be interesting to see

134

what your kid's sense of humor.

135

Oh, yeah.

136

Track 1: Is it like yours?

137

Especially my son.

138

my son is nine, and he has the sense

of humor of, a 40 year old man.

139

but, It's awesome.

140

when my kids were babies, again,

like this is how I talk all the time.

141

I might swear less when I know that lots

of people are listening, but generally

142

speaking, it's all, this is what it is.

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And so when my kids were really

little and I would just like

144

monologue my day kind of thing.

145

And.

146

like my son was like one or whatever.

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I'd be like someday you will appreciate

how hilarious I am right and he's

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like snack, but he's so fast and I

love it because he'll like go through

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the room as I'm like saying something

and Chuckle to himself and then walk

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away and I'm like, ah It's happened

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Track 1: too have been saying for years to

my son, one day you're going to understand

152

how funny of a household you grow up in.

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Like you're going to realize not

everyone's household was this funny.

154

And yeah, I know my son too.

155

He's 11 now.

156

he likes to listen to comedians, which

is really tough because a lot of comedic

157

material is not age appropriate for

an elementary kid, but oh my gosh, he

158

likes to spout out like other comedians.

159

Stuff but put his own twist

on it and yeah, same thing.

160

I'm like, okay I feel like I've peaked

as a parent now that my kid is walking

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around He's he did a joke this morning.

162

It's the voice of a Kennedy

at dinner I can't do it.

163

It was like don't ask what cream

corn can do for you ask It's like

164

this whole thing, but anyway, so

yeah, I'm right there with you.

165

We were like, this is my goal as a parent

is to impart comedic wisdom to my child.

166

Yeah.

167

Oh my gosh.

168

It's awesome.

169

Track 1: so the reason we're here,

when you came to us, we zeroed in on.

170

Helping your kids manage

their own playroom.

171

I love that you had the mindset

of these are their items.

172

This is their space.

173

Like I want to guide them, but I'm

not going to do it for them, which I

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thought is Man, I just, I want more

parents to impart that onto their little

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ones because they need to learn how

to do that and giving them ownership

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over a space I think is just so great.

177

but you wanted to make sure that items

were getting rotated out if they're not

178

being played with, that they're broken,

making sure that things are applicable.

179

So we had come up with a general

plan of seeing stuff in the

180

playroom as categories and then

piggybacking onto your Sunday morning.

181

Routine of sheets and pick up and

cleaning and giving them a few minutes

182

to pick a category and go through it.

183

Tell me where did you have a

conversation with your family?

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Did that ever come up?

185

Did you try something different?

186

No wrong answers

187

yeah.

188

Definitely conversations were had.

189

Definitely pushback was,

190

abrupt.

191

But it's not, like I was saying

before, it's not like this is new.

192

my, my kids push back on

changing their sheets.

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Not all of them, but some of

them push back on changing

194

their sheets on the weekends.

195

And so it's just that's

really par for the course.

196

it's, I feel like, in the same

vein, if I was like, okay, guys,

197

now we are going to pick a category

and we are going to go through and

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you were going to throw stuff out.

199

And they were like, okay, mom,

that sounds like a great idea.

200

I'd be like, wait, what?

201

when does the other shoe drop?

202

like in those comedy, then those

cartoons where somebody yells and all

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the windows get blown out of the house.

204

I was like, no, I am

not lined up for this.

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I think that the idea of putting the

expectation out there and then it's like

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a gradual adoption of said expectation

is really important because I doubt,

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highly doubt, and maybe it's just me

and my life, but I highly doubt that

208

anything that you put out that is

seemingly a drastic change for your kids

209

is going to be received well, unless

it's, we're having ice cream for dinner.

210

Because it's just, is what it is.

211

kids like, they like their routine,

and they like their stuff, and also,

212

in their play space, I have made the

mistake in the past of going through and

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picking up a bunch of blocks that are

on the floor, only to realize that, I

214

took the unicorns, space and now there's

no place to put the gnome and there's

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a story that's happening and there is a

whole world that's going on that I don't

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know about because it lives in someone

else's head and I just messed that up.

217

and I don't want it to be that.

218

I don't want it to be like

the drama and trauma of trying

219

to clean up after yourself.

220

there was some pushback and However,

the, I guess the other avenue that

221

I resorted to in, in saying, we need

to start doing this more is there are

222

markers that are in here that are dry.

223

When you find stuff that doesn't

work, when you find stuff that

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isn't like you're not playing with.

225

let's start there.

226

Like, how about if today we go through

and pick up the dried markers and test

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those out and all of that and just

try and do it that way versus more

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of a like prescriptive, now we will

do these things and you will love it.

229

Track 1: Absolutely.

230

And I think you brought

up so many good points.

231

one, yeah, you've got four

different kids with four different

232

personalities, so even to try to get

them on the same page is impossible.

233

Let's be realistic.

234

And it really was a jumping off point.

235

And like you said, you put

out this new idea and it's

236

going to be a slow adaptation.

237

I was talking with that low hanging fruit.

238

Okay, let's just find the markers that

are dried, like making it really simple.

239

And I think too, I think with kids,

their perspective is so different.

240

I think when they hear something

that's about change, there is

241

sort of this unsettling feeling of

everything's going to change, right?

242

So if you make it really bite

size, no, just get rid of the

243

markers that don't work, right?

244

it feels like a really

comfortable in for some kids.

245

You just started the conversation and

that's all we can really do is, not turn

246

our backs and pretend it's going to fix

itself, but just start the conversation.

247

And I love that you were talking

about the pushback, they.

248

Changing the sheets every week.

249

I just had this with my kid where he

hadn't brushed his teeth before bed.

250

And he came back with,

you didn't remind me.

251

And I was like, Oh my goodness,

we have brushed your teeth every

252

night for your entire life.

253

And you're telling me now at 11

years old, you need a reminder.

254

So it's like you with the sheets, like

255

are naturally going to push back.

256

That's just the role.

257

I was thinking about that.

258

Story of what is it, the scorpion and

the frog, and it's just yep, it's our

259

role as parents to teach them this stuff.

260

And it's their roles as kids to

be like, I don't want to do that.

261

let's be honest, it's boring

262

Yeah.

263

Track 1: It is kids want to play.

264

, even adults don't want to do this.

265

It's true.

266

with my kids, I tell them just

brush the teeth they want to keep.

267

and they're like, wait, what?

268

or like my youngest is but

I have all my baby teeth.

269

And I'm like, fair, don't brush them.

270

See what happens.

271

And then, and he's Oh, okay.

272

Like what?

273

but yeah, no, I think that the, that idea,

appealing to interests in terms of there

274

are toys in the basement that they know

are in the basement that they want to

275

come out and so having it framed as more

of a bartering type situation versus Like

276

initially, it was like, I'm going to go in

and I'm going to take these toys and I'm

277

going to put them down in the basement.

278

that's trauma.

279

Very, small, but that is the like

the ripping apart of the ecosystem

280

of their playroom that they have

set up for themselves, right?

281

Versus there's already

stuff in the basement.

282

They know what's down there.

283

They know that this is going to happen.

284

this is where things live

that are not being used.

285

If you decide that you want the

thing, if you want the farm with

286

the tractor or this and this, there

has to be a trade that takes place.

287

So there is a currency that works

for them that's happening versus

288

me just going in and saying, I'm

going to take out these 20 things.

289

They're gone.

290

Too bad.

291

and so they then get to say, all right,

I want to trade out this for the Paw

292

Patrol tower that's in the basement.

293

And I mean, they definitely come over

with one block of Lego and they're

294

like, can I trade this for the tower?

295

And I'm like, eh, no, like equal

value in terms of like real

296

estate has to be had here in order

for this transaction to work.

297

But I see you with your cute self.

298

Track 1: that's a great example

of, I use the example of having

299

a boundary on things, right?

300

And so it's you want the

toy room to be theirs.

301

You've given them the boundary of

this room for them to, like you said,

302

create that ecosystem of the playroom.

303

And then there is the, okay,

you've got freedom within this.

304

But if you want to bring something

else in, here's the boundary.

305

You have to trade something out.

306

So it's you're not dictating.

307

I remember learning from this

parenting expert and I can't remember

308

the two words, but it's like on one

end of the extreme is a dictator.

309

And on the other end of the stream is

whatever the opposite of a dictator is.

310

It's the, it's not authoritarian

311

cause that's like on the left.

312

it has to do with just saying no,

not ever saying no to anything.

313

Track 1: Right.

314

And this parenting educator was

talking about how both ends of

315

the extreme are actually both

really hard for kids and scary.

316

And she was saying, it's actually

finding that middle point of there

317

are rules and there is freedom, but

having freedom within the rules.

318

And that's what I hear

you saying with your kids.

319

Giving them the structure and then you're

also giving them choices within it.

320

And.

321

Giving him that incentive of if you give

up this then you can get that and I use

322

that example of if somebody's Birthday

is coming up or if there's a holiday

323

where they're gonna get lots of gifts

It's like, all right, the closet's full

324

if you want room for new toys to come in.

325

What do you want to trade?

326

What do you want to

donate to the preschool?

327

What do you want to donate to your cousin

and just giving him that I always think

328

about the expression Have you heard it?

329

now, hard later, hard now, easy later.

330

And it's yeah, this stuff is boring.

331

Going through the markers is boring.

332

Deciding what to get rid of is boring.

333

But, if you learn that now, as a

kid, it's actually going to make

334

life easier when you're older.

335

If you don't want to teach

them now, that's fine.

336

that is the easy path.

337

But then your kid's going

to be really confused.

338

Struggling when they have their own

space and they don't know how to get

339

rid of stuff or go through those markers

Right, like we're trying to teach in

340

that skill, which yeah, it's not easy

341

No, it's not.

342

And it's also too, I think I don't,

I also don't want anyone to be under

343

the impression that like I had this

conversation like a couple of times

344

and we swapped things out and like now

my playroom looks like a showpiece.

345

Like I think that's the other part

too, that people get hung up on is

346

the idea of I did the things and I

followed the steps and now they're

347

still like, you mess in there.

348

But what kind is it?

349

Is it a mess of overwhelming things

are like crammed into shelves

350

and like all over the place?

351

Or is it the mess of play?

352

play is not neat.

353

It shouldn't be neat.

354

and that is like unstructured play when

you have imagination and creativity and

355

all of those things that people don't see.

356

because it's happening between

two kids or it's happening in

357

your own head and all that stuff.

358

That is inherently a mess.

359

And that's the point.

360

And it's just this idea of creating

the space for that to happen,

361

but also creating the structure

for when that's over for it to

362

go back to where it needs to be.

363

So there is that reset for next time.

364

Track 1: Absolutely, and I mean you and

I are so on the same page Twin Flames.

365

Yeah, it's letting them understand If

you have too much stuff, there is no open

366

floor to build that Lego set to create

that space for the unicorn to live.

367

By limiting how much is in the room, we

are allowing for that freedom of play.

368

So again, it's that education piece and

just that not, it's not even a trade off.

369

It's just if this, then that I always

think back to when my son, he would

370

get an idea and very much ingrained.

371

I'm trying to not use the word donkey.

372

you know how like donkeys

just dig their heels in.

373

He was a little tiny kid and

I picked him up from daycare.

374

And the teacher was like, just so you

know, he didn't have a snack today.

375

And it's not that he wasn't

allowed to have a snack.

376

It was that he had to

wash his hands first.

377

Cause we were outside in the sand.

378

And he chose to stand in front of

the sink and not wash his hands

379

while we had snack for 20 minutes.

380

And I was like, first of

all, it sounds like my kid.

381

she's like, but I told him you can have

your snack after you wash your hands.

382

It was very much if this than that.

383

I've really tried to take that

in as I go forward instead of

384

those, hammer down, dictator,

authoritarian, this is what it is.

385

It's just, if this, then that, if you

have space in the room to play, then

386

you can utilize all your toys better.

387

Right.

388

Track 1: but going back to what you said

in the beginning, it's yeah, you put

389

the idea out there and they naturally

pushed back because they're kids.

390

391

But it's also too like having,

you know, when you say like easy

392

now hard later Is that is gonna

apply across the board, right?

393

So if the if you're not having these

conversations right now That means

394

that it's gonna be that much harder to

have those conversations going forward.

395

So it's not always necessarily like the

conversation Yes, the playroom is the

396

topic, but the conversation is more about

modeling the element of boundaries and

397

compromise and freedom and flexibility

and how that all comes together.

398

Because, if you say no to

everything all the time, no, no,

399

no, everything is super strict.

400

It is going to come back like that's hard.

401

It's not that's hard in a way that's

not going to become easier later.

402

And so it's that mix of figuring out

where that middle place is and holding

403

that space as the space to work towards

versus saying, I just say no to everything

404

so that they're going to be like better

off in the future because there's no, I

405

don't know an adult who's thank you so

much for being a complete jerk at work.

406

thank you so much.

407

I really miss this from, my

family of origin or my childhood.

408

You have really warmed my

heart on this Christmas Eve.

409

no, people are just like,

that person is a jerk.

410

what?

411

I'm not, I am not going to do what

they're telling me to do because I am

412

now an adult and I don't have to and I

grew up like that so it's that, space

413

of like, mutual respect and compromise.

414

Track 1: A hundred percent.

415

And what you were saying in there

too, I was thinking of this concept

416

of like the nuance of understanding

a situation from all angles.

417

If you do come down with that hammer

of I'm getting rid of, 50 percent of

418

stuff, no questions, no understanding,

just I'm doing this, they never

419

understand the situation of it from all

angles, And so that is that hard now.

420

So it's easier latEr.

421

When you were talking about the

whole no thing, there was this.

422

Research study done.

423

And for the life of me, I have

not been able to find it again,

424

but it was so interesting.

425

They looked at cultures all around

the world and how in the most cultures

426

outside of the United States, when

kids ask to be a part of something.

427

They're included.

428

It's messy.

429

It makes things more complicated,

but there's a sense of engagement

430

and the kid learns how to make that

food that you have once a week, they

431

learn how to wash the dish, right?

432

But there is such a mindset of, I'm

going to say no, because they're

433

going to create more work for me.

434

Okay.

435

You're going to say no when

there's zero through 10.

436

And then when they're 11, you're going

to expect them to start doing chores.

437

And you've been telling them,

no, you can't use the vacuum

438

cleaner this whole time.

439

It's like that whole thing of yes and no.

440

Yeah.

441

If you're always saying no, then they're

going to stop being part of the process.

442

Yeah, I, it's definitely a cultural thing

443

to like having, there are definitely

lots of other countries and this is

444

very, widely known, widely studied that

there are other countries where children

445

are very much a part of the day to day.

446

children going out to eat in restaurants,

like children are allowed to exist

447

as their whole human selves in their

imperfect manners and their imperfect

448

behavior and all of those things.

449

And it's just accepted.

450

Whereas this country still

functions very much in a like seen,

451

not heard mentality around it.

452

However, if we don't allow children to

have that space to be, imperfect and

453

Loud and all of those things and we

just keep them Quiet and on the side

454

and like they don't go they don't have

the those experiences and they don't

455

have that exposure That is not going to

help them in the long run and it's also

456

not going to help them when they have

their own children it's an impossible

457

lift right now, to think that you have

children and they're supposed to go

458

out into the world and act as though

they are little tiny adults because

459

children are not little tiny adults.

460

They are children and if you don't clear

space for them in your own, patience

461

and concept and all of that stuff,

like it's not going to get easier just

462

because you don't want to deal with it.

463

.

Track 1: And I mean, in, in no way are either one of us, I don't want

464

to speak for you, but it's I'm not

dismissing how much more work it is.

465

Oh, tons.

466

Track 1: kid to the restaurant and then

have to take them outside when they

467

start having a tantrum like it is so

much More work, but it's that hard now

468

easy later And I try to say this to a

lot of whenever I can to people with

469

young kids about participation And I'm

like no matter what the home task is they

470

don't even have to be verbal If they can

walk, they can be part of the process.

471

If you're taking the trash out, ask

them to open the door, make sure

472

they're witnessing the process, have

them stand there and be a part of it.

473

And then one day they're going to be

tall enough to hold a bag of trash.

474

And maybe they can't take it

out to the trash can, but maybe

475

they can carry it to the door.

476

Right.

477

Making dinner.

478

No, they're not going to

use the stove or the knife.

479

No, but can they pull out a

pot or a pan that's at their

480

level that's not breakable?

481

clearing dishes.

482

It's okay, you don't want them to

pick up something that's breakable,

483

but can they carry the salt

and pepper back to the counter?

484

Or, like the silverware that's not sharp.

485

Can they carry it over to the sink?

486

It's like finding that in for them

to start to be a part of it and

487

say yes and learn and see and do

and that expectation is there.

488

I'm part of the process,

489

I'm part of the family.

490

Track 1: I'm part of the family

versus waiting 10 years and going,

491

why aren't you doing anything?

492

cause you told me no.

493

Yeah.

494

Or, it's also, in occupational therapy,

it's called the Just Right Challenge.

495

So it's figuring out what people

can do, and this applies across the

496

board, but, figuring out what people

can do, and if you either need to

497

modify the activity or teach skills.

498

And that's the whole, that's the

whole balance and the whole push and

499

pull that, that I use professionally.

500

or in practice.

501

and it's figuring out like what the

activity parts look like and what

502

they can do and what they can't do,

where the pieces that's gone awry and

503

what's the best way to overcome that

challenge or that stopping point.

504

Is it you have to work on the skills

that you need to reacquire if it's an

505

adult or the skills that you need to

acquire as a child you or do you need

506

to actually modify the activity because

somebody that, like someone who's had

507

a stroke and one of their arms doesn't

work, not doesn't work, but is impacted

508

by their stroke, they're not going

to be able to use a cutting board, a

509

regular cutting board with two hands.

510

So do you just tell them that they can't

cut food for the rest of their life

511

because you're a person who wants to live

independently as independent as possible?

512

Instead of doing that, you

use an adaptive cutting board.

513

So you use a cutting board that has

these, spikes that come up, and it holds

514

the food so it does the work that their

second hand would do, so that they are

515

able to engage in that task to the best

of their ability, and they are able

516

to successfully complete that task.

517

And with kids, generally speaking,

it is learning the skills as they go.

518

So it's exactly what you're saying,

it's, you're not going to have your kid

519

cook, A big baked pasta dish, right?

520

But your kids can do things like they

can stir the stuff before it's hot.

521

They can help set the table.

522

They can help do all of those pieces.

523

And if it doesn't look perfect, it's okay.

524

Also, like who is who's going to come over

like on a Thursday night and be like, I

525

would have given this dinner a 10 However,

the table is not set to perfection.

526

Like it's your own house.

527

You can do whatever the hell

you want your own house.

528

Okay.

529

when it comes to like people

learning things and making a mess.

530

Track 1: and I think that comes into

getting clear on your objective.

531

All right.

532

Track 1: Is your objective

that it looks a certain way?

533

Is your objective that it has to be

done in a certain amount of time?

534

Is your objective that you want to teach

your children skills by including them.

535

And again, anyone listening who's feeling

that urge to push back, I understand

536

it takes so much more gosh darn time.

537

I do, I truly do.

538

And if you always say no,

they're never going to help.

539

And it's not about including

them with every single activity.

540

But finding, like you said,

a step that is just right.

541

And I used to work with, an assisted

living facility and we used the

542

expression about setting them up for

success, which is exact same thing.

543

Just more syllables,

but it's the same thing.

544

There's this recipe that my son likes

to do, and I find it to be very much

545

a pain in the butt, but I'm like, if

you help me do it, we'll, we'll do it.

546

I have found the step that he can very

easily do that reduces the burden on me,

547

but I have to set them up for success.

548

And then he does that very, he does

it happily because he's getting

549

the recipe he wants at the end.

550

And now that I've done it two times.

551

It's Oh, this part is yours.

552

I don't even have to tell him.

553

And so it's like putting that

little bit of input in the beginning

554

for the output on the other end.

555

Mhm.

556

Mhm.

557

Track 1: And so circling this all

back to your kids toy rooms, it's,

558

you're giving them that autonomy of

managing a space that's their own so

559

that they can have enjoyment, but also

making sure that it doesn't become,

560

Mhm.

561

Track 1: Complete anarchy and chaos

because they do need to learn the

562

structure to be able to enjoy it fully

and then have those skills as an adult.

563

we're right on the same page.

564

Again, I think our souls were connected

at one point in a previous life.

565

Well, and I think the important thing

566

for people that are listening who

are like, that sounds great lady.

567

Like you can just go and put

on your linen apron and Mary

568

Poppins your way through life.

569

And like your kids come out as these like

fully formed, like shit hits the fan too.

570

And that's.

571

that's.

572

okay.

573

It's okay that happens.

574

I want my kids to learn how to

clean up their playroom, but that

575

doesn't mean that I'm never going to

go in there again and, rip through

576

all the trash and pull it all out.

577

Because.

578

Time is a factor in all of these pieces.

579

I can teach my kids how to cook

something on a Sunday afternoon if we

580

don't have any sports and the groceries

are done and all of those things.

581

But like also remembering that like

a Tuesday when, three kids have

582

activities going on and there's

literally like a 20 minute swap

583

over to have dinner on the table.

584

this isn't the chef's dream

that you're putting out.

585

However, there are a half a dozen people

who need to eat food so that it does

586

not dissolve into some sort of Jurassic

Park takeoff, is really important

587

because There's so much out there that

I think it's put out as an all or none.

588

It's you

589

can either always be doing this thing,

like you can always be the patient and

590

engaged and quiet voice, like whatever

parent, or you're the one who just

591

says no to everything and you are like

so pressed for this and everything

592

moves fast and you don't have time and

there's no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

593

There is ebbing and flowing that happens.

594

And because you exist in one space,

you're not doing the right thing

595

and you exist in the other space.

596

You're not doing the wrong thing.

597

And I think that's really important

because people put so much pressure on

598

themselves to do the right thing, but the

right thing is not always the same thing.

599

Track 1: hundred percent.

600

And it goes back to earlier when I

said that nuance of understanding.

601

Yeah, I never, I can't say never.

602

Cause that would contradict my point.

603

I'm going to make, I try to not

make any sentence of absolutes.

604

Yeah.

605

Never and always.

606

Track 1: never an office.

607

They're all suggestions and ideas

to create the scaffolding for the

608

general direction you want to go in.

609

Like you said, some days getting the

food on the table is more important than

610

including all four kids in the process.

611

Abso frickin lutely.

612

That doesn't mean you never

include the kids in the process.

613

It just means some days it's going

to make sense and some days it's not.

614

what is your objective in that moment?

615

And then what's your overall objective?

616

I use this example I

call zoom in, zoom out.

617

Zoom out.

618

What's your overall objective as a

family and as your parenting goals?

619

Zoom out and then zoom in.

620

Is that going to work

right in this situation?

621

Okay.

622

Maybe not, but zoom back out and make

sure you know, your overall trajectory.

623

And if you can keep putting drops in

that direction, you want to go, sure.

624

If you've got a hundred marbles,

and you're like, okay, it's

625

going into, this is my objective.

626

I'm going to put it.

627

Okay.

628

I hit it.

629

I hit it.

630

But some of the marbles

aren't going to fall in there.

631

Hey, get the majority, get

51 percent of them in there.

632

And you're going in that direction.

633

But like you said, don't just

throw it out the door and just say,

634

Oh, it's never going to happen.

635

Oh, try it once a week,

try it once a month.

636

I don't know.

637

Like just , don't ignore any

of these ideas because you

638

think you can't do them always.

639

Yeah.

640

Track 1: There's not that pressure.

641

it's making it work with your lifestyle

and having ideas of directions to go.

642

Yeah,

643

it's too, we don't, no

one lives on Instagram.

644

And if you are inspired by things

that you see there, that's great.

645

But if going there leads you to feeling

terribly, that's not the place that

646

you need to be because nobody on

Instagram is raising your children.

647

every house is different.

648

Every orientation, every schedule, every,

all of that stuff is all different.

649

It's not an apples to apples conversation.

650

my family looks very different

at five o'clock with four kids

651

than my neighbor who has two.

652

And maybe that means at five

o'clock on a Tuesday, they

653

are making pizzas as a family.

654

But at five o'clock on a Tuesday,

I am trying to feed the dinosaurs

655

before my house gets raged on.

656

And I love the dinosaurs.

657

They're very cute.

658

It's very sweet.

659

They look like the ones in

Jurassic Park before the rain.

660

and it's just like that idea, right?

661

Of right now, this is what I need to do.

662

Also remembering that I'm only

responsible for my dinosaurs.

663

One of my most favorite phrases as a

parent is not my circus, not my monkeys.

664

And my kids know this phrase very

well because sometimes they will

665

come home and they'll be like, so

and so is doing this or so and so

666

is having this happen or whatever.

667

And I'm like, not my

circus, not my monkeys.

668

I can only attend to four because

that's all I'm responsible for.

669

Track 1: a hundred percent.

670

And that's, that is a foundational

premise of no shame in the home game is

671

your house is not going to be managed

like your neighbor's house because.

672

We all have a different amount of living

beings in the house, we all have a

673

different set of resources, whether that's

financial time, emotional energy, physical

674

energy, and we all have different goals,

like different expectations for our home

675

unit and what that looks like, right?

676

if one family, all they want to do

is go camping every single weekend,

677

The way they structure their house is

going to be very different than the

678

family that all they want to do is

play games and be at home and, try to

679

leave the house as little as possible.

680

you can't compare them, not your circus,

not your monkeys, but if you can hear

681

something from any one of these episodes,

even if we're talking about the playroom.

682

Maybe you don't have four kids, maybe

you don't have a designated room for a

683

playroom, but the principle of giving

your kids the power and authority to learn

684

how to manage their belongings, right?

685

Finding that core element.

686

I know you know this, so it's anyone

who listening, it's just yeah,

687

we don't expect you to do it like

Ashley's doing it or like I'm doing it.

688

But if you can find some nugget.

689

That will work in your home, then great.

690

Take that home and try

it on, see if it works

691

and also not expecting that, like

692

the conversation will be the same.

693

maybe lightning struck and you

have the kid that's I really

694

think that's a great idea.

695

We should definitely rip apart

all of this and just make it

696

look more aesthetically pleasing.

697

like that's not going to happen.

698

But.

699

I also think it's important that people

know that, if you do get pushback,

700

it's not a one that it's not just

your kid, every kid is going to push

701

back and that doesn't necessarily

mean that there's a different way to

702

do it where you'll get no pushback.

703

It's that, that's part of the trade

off is you can't at this stage, you

704

can't throw something out there and

expect it to be, like, Always 100

705

percent well received, no, no issues.

706

and, yeah, like, to your point,

having, not having a space, this

707

for me is not about the playroom.

708

it's about their ability to,

take on a task for themselves and

709

understand that, you have these

things and you have this space.

710

It just where this is a playroom.

711

we can do this about their bedrooms.

712

We can do this about the

play area in the yard.

713

We can do like any of it.

714

It all applies.

715

It's the skills that are transferable

to other areas of their life.

716

That's more important than what the

shelves of their playroom look like.

717

Track 1: a hundred percent.

718

And I mean, and let's get real too.

719

I always say kids are like squirrels,

720

I've got a lot of squirrels,

721

Track 1: They want to squirrel away

722

everything,

723

Track 1: everything.

724

And that is the, I think

that's their default setting.

725

And it's like you said, you're not

going to put this out there and they're

726

going to embrace it a hundred percent.

727

That would be no, like their natural

tendency is to want to keep everything.

728

Even if that marker is dried out,

like your example in the first

729

episode of that bottle cap, that's

taped to that cardboard square.

730

That might've been Lacey's kid.

731

they want to keep.

732

Everything that's going to

be their tendency and they're

733

not going to want change.

734

But that doesn't mean it doesn't mean

you have to flip it, 180 degrees.

735

And it doesn't mean that you have to

embrace it a hundred percent either.

736

It's like, okay, I see what you want.

737

Let's talk about what is a good idea.

738

And like you said, finding the in

between, like where can you match

739

so that they have those skills

to apply to any of their spaces?

740

Yeah.

741

I think about this in terms of like

when people talk about like breaking

742

horses so you can make it so you can

actually put a saddle on a horse and

743

you can ride a horse and all of that.

744

And how, if you take a horse that's

never been ridden before and you

745

throw a saddle on it, first of all,

the saddle's not going to stay.

746

Second of all, you are not going to stay.

747

Third.

748

Someone's going to get

hurt in this experience.

749

And it's not because the horse is bad

and it's not because you are mean it's

750

because the two of you are trying to

figure out how to do something that,

751

that the horse has never done before.

752

Maybe you've never done

that before either.

753

cause generally that's how it goes with

parenting is that, you've never done

754

the things until you do the things.

755

And so it's this idea of going piece by

piece and figuring out how to get the

756

horse used to being around people, having

a blanket on, having a saddle on, and

757

then following along with the direction.

758

and that is, that's really what, that's

really what we're after when it comes

759

to trying to figure out the best way

for everybody to live and work together

760

where it doesn't involve just horses

running everywhere and kicking things

761

or squirrels.

762

Track 1: I just pictured putting

a little saddle on a squirrel.

763

I think about when you're talking about

breaking that horse, I think about

764

one of my aha moments is a parent is

realizing you don't say it once you

765

say it over and over and over, and

it's like the toothbrushing example.

766

We have been brushing the inside of his

mouth 365 days, maybe we've missed one

767

or two here or there because of travel or

chaos, whatever, and he's still confused

768

about brushing his teeth at night.

769

As your job as a parent over and over and

like breaking that horse with that saddle.

770

And then one day, you don't know when.

771

Yeah.

772

No idea.

773

Track 1: day, no idea, but if you don't

do it over and over, it'll never happen.

774

And.

775

Man, those moments when you see

them do something self initiated,

776

that you've been putting that drop

in that bucket for years and years.

777

Man, , like you're like,

Oh, they finally heard it.

778

but they finally heard it.

779

Like when my kid clears his dishes without

me having to prompt him, I'm like, wow.

780

It's really happening

781

Yeah.

782

When my kids, when we come back

from the grocery store and I

783

don't take all four of them to the

grocery store, like I'm not nuts.

784

but usually one will come with me

sometimes, depending on when I go.

785

But I remember the first time one

of my kids, I opened up the trunk

786

of the car and they like came around

the corner and grabbed a grocery

787

bag and we're like, can I help?

788

And I was like, knock

me over with a feather.

789

Holy cow.

790

It wasn't like get out of the

car and walk in the house.

791

I'm like.

792

Yeah, you can.

793

And also, I'd like a bullhorn

because I would like to shout from

794

the rooftops how incredible this is.

795

and you have to do that too.

796

it's not that you have to say these things

a million and one times, is that you also

797

have to acknowledge when those things are

happening, because that is so essential.

798

Because I do think, For sure that kids

want to be helpful like they don't want

799

to be in the way or they don't want

to like do all this stuff is they're

800

trying to figure out how do I fit

into this equation they asked to do

801

things because they want to be a part

of something And so when they do these

802

things and you're like, oh my god.

803

Yes This is amazing.

804

Yes.

805

you just made my day.

806

that feels good.

807

And it's not, you did this,

therefore you are good.

808

It's holy cow, that's so helpful.

809

Thank you so much.

810

This is awesome.

811

And you don't, necessarily have to,

fall down and, all of that all the time.

812

But when these milestones happen, if you

have that expectation and they look at

813

it as this is just the expectation versus

it really means a lot to me that you are

814

able to help with this, that's gonna also

change their trajectory in a way that is,

815

I would argue wholeheartedly more likely

for that type of help and behavior and

816

things that we are wanting to put out

into the world to continue to happen.

817

Track 1: a hundred percent.

818

And I think of two.

819

Back to the premise of the show, no shame

in the home game is so much a better

820

motivator to do something inspired by joy

and happiness and glee rather than shame,

821

. I have to make my house look a certain

way because otherwise I feel shamed.

822

If I don't, that is heavy and

it doesn't feel great versus.

823

I feel really joyful when all my clothes

are put away and it just feels good.

824

That good fuel motivation

will get you farther.

825

So like with your kids helping to carry

the bag, giving them recognition of

826

that's really helpful and I appreciate it.

827

Is going to give them that good fuel.

828

That's going to go

farther versus the shame.

829

Why doesn't anyone ever help me?

830

I'm always by myself.

831

Nobody does anything.

832

That shame is heavy

and is not a motivator.

833

Right.

834

and I know how it's anyone listening,

who's pushing back and saying, but

835

they don't help me and I am alone.

836

And it is frustrating.

837

Yeah, I validate you a hundred percent.

838

It is frustrating.

839

And.

840

If we put that emotional weight

on the rest of our family, they're

841

not going to do jack squat.

842

843

Track 1: They're not going to feel

motivated by your frustration.

844

Unfortunately, I've yet to

see that happen at least

845

yeah, and also recognizing that a there

846

are people out there that Do say the

things and they ask a million times and

847

they are following all the steps who are

going Yeah, no one is picking the bag

848

and like now I'm over it now I am full of

resentment and I hate this and it's awful

849

is like if you like Cinderella songbird,

every instruction or whatever that all

850

of a sudden, everyone's just going to be

like, ah, like a twinkle of awareness.

851

And then everyone flutters

down to help empty out the car.

852

there, there are things that may work

out and there's stuff that's not.

853

And if it doesn't mean that you have to

circle back and figure out how to ask

854

people in a way, it's okay to be pissed

and it's okay to have that expectation.

855

And you're like, listen, I put this

out here and I did this and I laid it

856

all out and stuff's still not changing.

857

Stuff's still not working out.

858

Let's have a conversation about this

because I just live in the dark and stormy

859

castle tower now and I don't want to.

860

Because that's also not fair because then

that's not only like The shame that is

861

going out towards other people But that

is the shame that you experience on the

862

inside of like why won't anyone help me?

863

Can't people see how hard I work?

864

Track 1: I, yeah, I want

to make it very clear.

865

I don't say any of this stuff

from high on the mountain.

866

Like I have it all figured out.

867

I still, like I said, I still have

to repeat things over and over.

868

But what I've recognized for myself

is when I can take my frustration and

869

those big, heavy emotions and find an

outlet for them, not in the direction

870

of my family, if I can get the heavy

emotions out in a safe way, and then

871

I can get clear on the communication.

872

Of, okay, they will hear me if

we have a very calm conversation,

873

Mm hmm.

874

Track 1: Feelings, a

hundred percent valid.

875

We had a listening expert, Deb

from the hold organization.

876

And yeah, it was just about you can't have

a conversation when you're dysregulated,

877

you can try to have a conversation,

878

not a successful one.

879

Track 1: not a successful one.

880

And so it's about.

881

regulating that nervous system.

882

So you can have a constructive

conversation because otherwise everyone's

883

going to be having big emotions.

884

If you come in with big emotions and in

the motions are valid, they're a hundred

885

percent valid, but yeah, find someplace

else to get those big feelings out.

886

I'm human.

887

It doesn't always work

out that way for me.

888

Yeah But the intention is there, right?

889

Like the intention with the

playroom is to create a space.

890

The intention with the cooking in the

kitchen is to have children that grow up

891

and they learn how to do this stuff and

they go off into the world and they're

892

not like putting shoes in their oven

because they're never going to use it.

893

Like it's, it, that's what you

want is you, that's the goal.

894

The goal is to pebble by pebble, launch

a fully formed human out into the world.

895

And.

896

having these plateaus and having

these dips and then having these like

897

huge periods of growth is part of

what's going to happen along the way.

898

And Yeah.

899

It's just that having these conversations

and having the consistency and having

900

the expectations that things are

going to work and things aren't.

901

even in my own life, like sometimes

I am totally buried in work and

902

it's I don't do all of the things

that I normally do, but right.

903

Like no one's going to hound, like going

to run around and hound me about it.

904

Yeah.

905

So sometimes my kids have a lot of

things going on like tournaments or big

906

school projects and stuff like that.

907

It's like there's got to be some grace

in there and some understanding that they

908

also have a different level of capacity

than you do for handling things alongside.

909

So like for them, , their

upcoming tournament might be the

910

most stressful thing for them.

911

Whereas your like product launch

that has taken 18 weeks to

912

develop and run the runway on.

913

It's the same.

914

It's the same.

915

Like the level of stress that they're

feeling and the level of stress

916

that you're feeling is the same.

917

The only difference is you've

already passed that step

918

and that's where they are.

919

so acknowledging and honoring them

where they are is going to help in that

920

element of compromise and intention

and Getting to a place where everyone,

921

there's a mutual understanding and mutual

compassion and mutual respect about that

922

and how to move forward productively.

923

Track 1: Yeah.

924

Oh my gosh.

925

This has been so great, Ashley.

926

Thank you so much for

sharing your journey with us.

927

I think the more we can talk about

it, it just helps other people to

928

see the reality of the situation.

929

and I know your intention too, with

your podcast and both, it just.

930

Let's all talk about it.

931

Let's all just be open about what's

going on and what works for us, what

932

doesn't work for us and not judging other

people for how they're doing things.

933

So

934

thank you so much.

935

Yeah.

936

I think, I just think the more

conversations that we have agreed

937

is better because especially where

there's so much input on, motherhood

938

and doing motherhood that's where

there's so many of these pieces that

939

we can not necessarily fix, but we can

sort of iron some of the wrinkles out

940

and move forward in a way that is more

cohesive and is more collaborative

941

and actually like having, coming

from a place of a more regulated form

942

of communication so that everyone

gets their seat at the table.

943

Track 1: Yes.

944

thank you again, Ashley, for

being part of this journey

945

and good luck with everything.

946

And I know we'll be in touch.

947

because yeah, I don't.

948

I don't want to not have these

great conversations with you.

949

Mhm.

950

Mhm.

951

Sara: Welcome back.

952

No shame in the home gamers.

953

So that was our first participant,

Ashley, her last episode.

954

So we've gone through all of

her work and bid her good luck.

955

Cause this work is never done.

956

It's just, you're at one step in

the process, which just keeps going.

957

I actually was thinking about that

this morning, cause I'm moving

958

artwork around in my house and I

really have to go over and over.

959

Step back from this is

where it's going to be.

960

And I'm shifting to let's try it out.

961

Very Lacey style.

962

Let's try it out.

963

Cause life just keeps happening

and we just keep adapting.

964

Lacey: We do.

965

And kids keep growing and

changing and all that stuff.

966

Just all of the things with it, for sure.

967

Sara: Speaking of growing, my kid went

to get on the school bus and I was like,

968

Whoa, is he going to dig clams today?

969

Because those pants are

knocking on his knees.

970

I actually displaced an order for some

pants because I told him, I said, hey,

971

we need to get those out of your closet.

972

And he goes, then I wouldn't have enough

pants to wear to school each week.

973

Okay.

974

So that means again,

teaching kids how to operate.

975

Okay.

976

So that's a signal that

we need to get more pants.

977

Lacey: Yeah, you do laundry too well.

978

That's what that tells me.

979

Because ours is like, Isaac's

Mom, where are all my pants?

980

I'm like, I don't know, bro.

981

They're somewhere.

982

they're in the, they're being washed.

983

It's fine.

984

Actually, right now, their

clothes got washed on Thursday.

985

And then I fold them.

986

And I've been saying they

have to put them away.

987

especially Isaac.

988

Iris will help.

989

But Isaac is old enough.

990

He's five.

991

He knows where his clothes go.

992

He can put them And I

folded them on Iris's floor.

993

And guess what's still

there on Monday morning?

994

Everyone's clothes.

995

, you know what?

996

Doesn't hurt me.

997

Whatever.

998

Okay.

999

Sara: It doesn't hurt anyone and I always

think about different tasks in the home

as either like a straight run or a relay.

You're in the middle of

a relay with the laundry.

And it's just, that's the

step that it comes next.

I think maybe we don't want

them living there in perpetuity.

Lacey: I'm just surprised Iris hasn't been

like, Guys, what, get this out of here.

What are you doing?

Cause she very much would be like,

is my space, get out of here.

But she hasn't.

Sara: I'm just, I'm imagining her, if

you actually did fold it all, like she's

going to go in there and jump into it

like a big pile of clothes and mess it all

Lacey: if I had to guess, I heard Joe at

some point saying leave the laundry alone.

I think it was getting ready

for bedtime at some point.

I think that has happened.

I have emotionally separated myself from

that because, As I think we talked about

in season one, you can't take the laundry

away until I've folded it all because I

need the validation that I've completed

Sara: right.

Lacey: so then, so if I am

folding, I usually fold on our bed.

but I was folding in their room because

I was trying to make their lives easier.

It's fine, whatever.

And, And the kids get on the bed.

I'm like, do not touch the laundry because

I just don't want, it's my personal

feelings and it will cause me harm.

but now that I'm done

with it, okay, whatever.

I've emotionally removed

myself from that situation.

Sara: Well, you, you may want to

verbally pass the baton to someone else.

if everyone's been scared away

from touching the laundry, if it's

mom's project, there may be some

miscommunication over whose turn it

Lacey: I think it's very generous

for you to say that's what

you think's happening here.

Sara: I am trying to relate it back to

home CEO and looking at the steps in

the flow and where the hiccup may be.

Lacey: Yeah.

we like to end our episodes

with a moment of gratitude.

So I am sharing the middle.

I've been doing conversations

with people in my life, to

explore different parts of it.

And, I think when this comes out,

the part two of my friend, Emma, we

talk about being lifelong friends

and going through girlhood and like

seeing each other in different phases

of our life and that kind of stuff.

you know, when you talk to

someone and it just builds up.

brings them back into your orbit

more, which is great because Emma

lives like five minutes away.

So she, took me to Costco last

week cause Costco is a hard

thing for me to do by myself.

We went together so she could help me

with all the big boxes and, getting

it from my, her car to my house.

Great.

Great thing.

Very helpful.

This week, Carolyn wants to go with me.

So we've got that coming up.

But, as a beyond just our Costco

run, I also had lunch yesterday

with one of our friends from high

school, who she's still very close

with, came into town from Chicago.

And then we brought in another friend

who, Was in our, she was in our friend

group and she, just lost touch apparently.

She only lives like five

minutes away as well.

So we all had brunch and it was It's

so nice to just be with a certain

set of people that you're like, Oh,

we all just know each other and this

just feels so good and so right.

And you're giggling like you were

when you were 17 about stupid stuff,

but then also joking about how now.

Orange juice gives you heartburn, it

just, it was really lovely and beautiful

and it brought me so much joy, in so many

ways, because I, not that I didn't have

lovely friends in high school or anything

like that, I have really separated myself

from that period of time because of like

my own relationship with myself and so

it just felt good to also reconnect with

that fun person that I was then, too.

So now that I'm not fun now,

I'm just saying, just to get

different parts of me back.

Sara: I love that.

I, yes, I know that feeling so well.

I have a friend I've known

since sixth grade and we are

not in sixth grade anymore.

So it's been many years.

Yes.

And.

Yeah, every time we have one of those

really great conversations, it just feels

so full, like this person knows what I

was like then, and still knows me, and

it does, it has such a unique feeling,

Lacey: it's just good for your soul.

there was just something and

there was also just something so

lovely about falling back into.

being the people who we were,

I'm a little different now.

I was the mama bear of the group.

And so I've let back on that a little bit,

there just was so many things

that I'm like, Oh, this just

feels so nice and so full.

And, gosh, brought me so much joy.

Sara: oh, I love that, and I do want to

make a little side note, funny story,

when you were talking about how you went

to Costco together, I was reading on

threads, I'm at a stage in my life where

I don't want a friend that I can go to

the bars with and stay out full midnight.

I want a friend that I can

run errands with on a Saturday

and make it a good time.

And I'm like, Oh, you

have an errand friend.

Lacey: Joe and I, running errands with

Joe, like if he and I have a day together,

the two of us, that's what we do.

Like we go to HomeGoods and we putz

around and, run to different places.

And it's my favorite thing to, it's

our favorite thing to do together.

So I feel that to my core of

how much joy you can get from

just doing errands with someone.

Sara: That makes me happy.

Lacey: Good.

That's the purpose.

That's the point.

Sara: and then you said Carolyn

wants to go with you next week.

I pictured, remember back in

the day, dance cards that women

would tie to their wrists.

I was picturing you having an errand card.

You're like, who's going

to go with Costco to me?

Lacey: I've been reading a lot of

historical romance, so you know

I roll up on the dance cards.

But, I know, I'm so in, I'm so in demand.

People want to run errands with me.

Sara: who wants to go to Costco with me?

Oh, I'm full.

Check back next month.

Lacey: we can't go every week.

It has to be every other.

Okay.

That's just too much.

Sara: Let's see my moment of gratitude.

Okay, yesterday was a beautiful day.

we went to this trail.

It's this really nice 1.

2 mile trail.

It's paved and even, but

it's, you go through a lot of

wetlands and it's just so nice.

And yesterday was so beautiful.

So we went, my son and my dog, and my son

was actually curious about Lots of things.

what's that tree and Oh, look at that bug.

Like it's, it was shimmering.

It was an iridescent green.

What's that bird calling right now?

And it was re and so the whole walk.

And it's interesting because

since he was little, I've been

pointing stuff out like that.

But at a certain point

it was like, Oh, okay.

I'm just babbling.

And then it came back.

And I was like, Oh, he actually

wants to talk about this stuff.

And so we spent the whole

walk pointing out ducks and

trees and looking for snakes.

and I was like, oh, my heart was so full.

And then we got to the end and

he goes, that was really nice.

And I was like, oh my gosh.

Not only did he ask me

questions, he enjoyed it.

And it was, it made my heart happy.

So it was just a nice

Lacey: much for you.

I love it so much.

It's not for me, but love it for you.

I don't hate outdoors.

I just I want to sit on the porch.

Like I need to be able

to go inside easily.

I have been on a journey to make my

back porch essentially a place that

I can lay down in multiple places

and we are almost all the way there.

So that's another big thing

that's been happening here.

Sara: I do have to say when you said

that about the porch, that reminds

me of Sarah from Participant One.

They bought one of those, you can put

it on your deck and it's semi enclosed.

It's got a roof and then you can

draw the curtains open and close.

So if you

Lacey: a pergola, like

a pergola type thing.

Sara: yeah, it's, she's it's

like I'm outside, but I'm not.

Lacey: Man, we are one of the same.

We are birds of a feather.

There we go.

Cause she also is not a bird gal either.

that's what I want to, like

being outside, but not.

That's for me.

Sara: not.

Let's be honest.

But not.

Lacey: I have gotten joy from

talking to you today, Sarah.

Sara: Thank you, Lacey.

Lacey: Thank you, Sarah.