The Clothes Chair Revolution: Embrace the Messy

Welcome to No Shame in the Home Game, the podcast that cares

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how your home feels, not looks.

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I am your bubbling co host.

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, I just was telling Sarah all these

things I'm excited about and I feel

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like the universe and I are at one and

we got this and things are happening.

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I'm here with Sarah, my ever

patient with my bubbling co host.

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Hi, Sarah.

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Sara: Hello, Lacey.

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So a visual for the audience.

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Imagine you're putting pot after

pot on your stove with water and you

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just keep turning on the burners.

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And then all of a sudden you turn

around and all of the pots are boiling.

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That is Lacey today.

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All of her pots are boiling at the same

time and it's like over here, over there,

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like everything's grabbing your attention.

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And I think it's wonderful

Because this is part of who you

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are, and I just, all your parts are

boiling right now, and I love it.

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Lacey: Yeah.

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I don't want to say I'm in a manic

state because I wouldn't, that's a

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certain level that I'm not, but I

am, I'm just like, Oh, this and this.

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And I just, yeah, even just with

like my son's OT appointment later,

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I sent messages of I think this needs

to happen and this, and so I'm a lot

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today, but I am not charged today.

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This is our first in between seasons

episode, and we're talking with an expert.

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Named Sarah.

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Hi, Sarah.

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Sara: Hi, Lacey.

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I am so excited, and I am not

embarrassed or ashamed to tell

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you how excited I am to talk about

this topic of your clothes chair.

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I'm giving everyone permission listening.

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If you want to laugh out loud, if you

want to make fun of me for being a

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geek about a closed chair, go for it.

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I am all in, I am president

of the closed chair fan club.

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And here it's so interesting

because it's one of those things

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where I think everybody has one.

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But people don't talk about it,

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Lacey: Can you define

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a closed chair?

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, Sara: yes, this is great.

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So well this is the other thing, and

this is why I'm glad we get to have

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two different points of view, is that

I think there's a little bit of a

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spectrum or open tour interpretation.

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I see the closed chair

as a transition space.

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for me, I utilize it as clothes

that you intend to wear again that

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don't need to go into the laundry.

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So they can't go back into your closet

because they're not 100 percent clean.

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They're not ready to go in the dirty

hamper because they're not at ew

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gross, I can't wear it again level.

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But you know that you might

do that activity again.

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in the next couple of days.

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So it's like a temporary holding space.

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This is like when you're at the airport

and you're not at your final destination,

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Lacey: you're in a layover.

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Sara: going to walk around the terminal.

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You're going to walk around.

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You're going to go get a snack.

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You're going to go to the

bathroom and get some water.

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You're going to stretch your

legs you have another flight,

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but you got to kill some time.

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So the closed chair is that holding

spot until your next flight departs.

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And I've heard some really great

terms and I can't remember them.

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So anybody who wants to comment

on social media and tell us what

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terms you use for your closed chair.

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I actually have a bench in the bathroom.

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That is my landing spot.

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I'm usually, I think I've mentioned

before, as much as I work with home

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management inside the house, I'm actually

usually outdoors more than anything.

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So.

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Sarah be dirty a lot.

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So I have to put on nice clothes

to go to appointments and go do

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things, but then I'm often changing

to go back outside and be dirty.

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But that outfit that I wore

for an hour, two hours, like

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it doesn't need to go in the

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hamper.

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it's not done.

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So I put it there as a holding place,

but here's the key is laundry day.

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So in our house, it's a

seven day laundry cycle.

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Laundry day, everything, regardless

of status, it gets reset.

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It's like a full sweep.

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Airport is closed at midnight.

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Full sweep.

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Everything gets cleaned and

then the cycle starts again.

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Because, as I say to my clients, You

don't want something that is supposed

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to be temporary to become permanent.

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So if there's never a reset, then it might

end up being the closed chair becomes

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more of this is where my clothes live.

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Oh, I don't put my clothes

in a drawer anymore.

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I now have a closed chair where

that's just where everything lives.

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That's not how I use mine.

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and I'm not even judging if

that's how you use yours.

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However.

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Do it with intention.

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Know yourself that this is, oh yeah, no,

I want my clean clothes to live here.

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That's fine, but just do it,

don't mix and match what's clean,

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what's dirty, what's half dirty.

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I need a term for half dirty.

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Lacey: I just want to say you are,

hitting on some things that we've

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already talked about, but I didn't

put together as my closed chair.

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So I don't know if you remember my old

house, I would sit and there was a,

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two storage, bins on top of each other.

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And that.

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Became my clothes chair,

but here's the problem.

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It became permanent

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because I would put clothes

that I meant to hang on it.

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And then I never got around

to hanging them And I will

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say I'm in my new house now.

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I recently just put in a clothes chair.

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Like literally it is a chair next

to my dresser where I get dressed.

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And, I'm sitting here giggling to

myself because I have slipped back

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into these have to get hung up

and I just haven't done it yet.

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So I needed to hear, Hey, reset.

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, but this, concept, Joe has always been

really good about, he has a pair of

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pants that he wears to work and they're

like his pants for a couple of days.

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Cause why would that's still nice so I

love the idea that it is a little messy,

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but it's functional and that's okay.

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, Sara: I like that you

just succinctly said it.

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It's a little messy, but it's functional.

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And I actually, one of my merchandising

pieces that you can buy, it says

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closed chair, don't care, and it's

got a picture of a closed chair

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and it's got sort of this rock and

roll like feel because embrace it.

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It's a tool.

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It works.

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Is it aesthetically ideal?

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come on.

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Who cares?

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who's going to see your closed chair?

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Are you having a photo shoot later?

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Okay.

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Here's who does care your realtor

if you are selling your house

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Lacey: Hey, It went away.

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I remember the day that it went away.

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Even, I think you were there,

you were like, Those are good.

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Sara: Think I remember saying I missed it

because it took on its own personality.

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It was like a figure in the room

So Joe has his own clothes chair.

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Is that what you're telling me?

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And then you have

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Lacey: Yes.

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Because in our new house,, we have

two benches cause we don't get rid

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of furniture and one of the benches

we can't, we're not using anymore.

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So there's one in front of the bed

and then there's one in front of a

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window and he uses the one in front

of the window as his closed chair.

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And then my stuff's on the other side

of the room and I just put a chair

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there and it is now my closed chair.

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, Sara: and let's be clear, and this is

where I'd love getting into nitty gritty.

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You were saying you were putting stuff

there that actually needs to be hung up.

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So, does that mean

you're only putting clean

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clothes there, or you're

also mixing in half

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Lacey: Only cleave.

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no, that's a lie.

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I will say I'm usually

only doing one at a time.

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It's an either or of it's either

clothes that I need to have hung

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up or it'll be like my sweater

that I wore that day that I'm like,

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I'm not going to like my cardigan.

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I'm not going to throw that in the wash.

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I can get a day or two out of that.

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I'm realizing now I never intentionally

made this decision, but that one,

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it's either one or the other.

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Sara: And again, it goes back to the

functionality that works for you.

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I was actually wearing that shirt

that said, Clothes Chair Don't Care.

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And my husband, he looked

at it and he read it and he

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goes, wait, I don't get it..

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Let's talk about this.

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I said, Closed chairs are a

tool that can be used very

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effectively if managed correctly.

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Do what works for you.

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No judgment.

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And he was like, Oh, I'm

like, yeah, no, the end.

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And this is why I always say

there's no one size fits all.

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It's what's the goal for you.

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And if the goal for you is, yeah, I don't

want to do more laundry than I have to.

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And sometimes I wear clothes

that I can wear again.

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Great.

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Then let's use a clothes chair

or like with you with the

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clothes that need to be hung up.

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Okay.

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These are clean.

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They're designated as clean.

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I don't have the energy to

put these away right now.

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So they are the way station.

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They're just standing on that train

depot waiting for that train to come.

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And you know it will.

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Lacey: Just, there's another category too.

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Sara: Bring it on.

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Lacey: I tried this on.

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I didn't want to wear it today,

but I haven't hung it back up yet.

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So it's clean.

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So currently my clothes chair is that

and clothes that need to be hung up.

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Sara: Yes.

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And I will be honest.

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this is becoming a bit of a true

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confession.

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My clothes bench in my

bathroom is half worn clothes.

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Like I don't wash my

exercise clothes every day.

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So that stuff is all in the bathroom.

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And yes, I also have a

chair next to my closet.

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Same thing.

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Like a jacket that I wore that

just needs to be hung back

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up is hanging on the chair.

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I said we have a seven

day rotation laundry.

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So on my day of laundry, Sometimes I'll

fold it, but I won't, I'll get too sleepy

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before the clothes get all the way home.

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So to get them off the bed,

I will put them on the chair.

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So they also have that.

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I'm clean.

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I just need to go home.

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I'm not home yet.

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Lacey: preach.

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I feel you.

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Clothes, chair, clothes.

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Sara: but it's embrace the tool

and just know what the tool is for.

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Okay.

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And it's, it's hard if

everything goes on the floor.

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Lacey: I

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Sara: Things that are clean that need to

be folded go on the floor and then you

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start mixing in things that are dirty

that absolutely need to be Wandered get on

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the floor and then you mix in things that

you could wear again If all those three

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categories get mixed up together, you're

really creating more laundry for yourself.

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Lacey: just had another realization.

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Isaac, when he turned five, I told

him one of his jobs is I will fold his

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laundry, but he has to put it away.

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And, I've been folding it because

he has a rug and so I fold it

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on the rug because it feels like

I'm not putting it on the ground.

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I don't know.

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It doesn't make sense, but it's my logic.

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and then what I've been doing

is I've been leaving it there.

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And then guess what doesn't happen?

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It doesn't get put away.

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And so what happens is there is that

question of like, well, what's clean,

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what's dirty, what's clean, what's dirty.

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I'm realizing the top of his dresser

that just has stuff on it right now,

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that needs to be where I park it.

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And then he has to put it away from there.

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Sorry, that was a big

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realization for me.

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Sara: this is great.

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This is when we talk about this because

If you can see what everyone's doing

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behind their door, you'll hear all these

great solutions that might work for you.

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So I ask you, is all your

family's laundry mixed together?

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Or do you do Isaac's laundry separately?

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Lacey: what happens is.

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it's sorted out, but

it's generally together.

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So like, Jo's and I's are together.

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Each of the kids have their own laundry

basket, but theirs often gets combined.

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it is purely based on the volume

of the load that's going in.

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Whatever, available laundry

there is gets taken.

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Sara: and is this done on a certain day?

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Is this time triggered

or just when it's full

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triggered or when mama has energy

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Lacey: I, by the way, I'm loving us

talking about my laundry process.

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Okay.

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Sara: it too.

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I'm in my happy

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Lacey: Joe is responsible for

Take it, so we have hampers in our

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closet that are like hanging bags.

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And so the idea is he takes a hanging

bag down and then sometimes he'll

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fill it to the top with kids laundry

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.

And then he does the washing, the drying, he puts it back in the hanging bag,

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it comes back upstairs, then we have

another cart for clean laundry that's

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actually next to my dresser as well.

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And so then that goes there.

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So that is my signal to then fold laundry.

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so we're very, there is a

system, but we're loose with it.

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And I'm really starting to accept

that's how we roll and that As long

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as we have clothes, and we know where

things are, and we have a system,

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stuff happens when it happens.

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we really are each other's trigger, right?

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So like, all of the things are full.

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Joe, we need some laundry.

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Lacey, there's no more room for bags.

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We need them folded.

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Okay, yeah.

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That's usually what happens.

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Sara: so I talk about events

happening with prompts.

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it's a time scheduled

prompt or an event prompt.

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So those are all event

prompt, which is great.

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And if that's working for your family

and I like that you already came up with

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your solution of, okay, I'll just put

the clean clothes on top of the dresser.

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If that starts to become a place of

confusion, still mixing dirty and clean,

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then I would come up with a backstop of

Clothes have to be put away before bedtime

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so in our house, my son does his laundry

on Saturday and don't ask me why he does

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not want to put it away on Saturday.

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And that's fine.

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He has until Sunday bed to put it away.

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So there's a basket of clean laundry

and I'm, and this is where a lot of

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parents will say, it frustrates me,

or it triggers, or it upsets me, . I

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have a boundary that basket of clean

laundry will sit there, and I know by

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the end of Sunday it will be put away.

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So I don't get upset because I

know the finish point is coming.

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Lacey: What happens if

he doesn't put it away?

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Cause that, we actually, I was

trying to do that with Isaac.

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okay, you have two days

to put your laundry away.

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And I don't want to set up punishments

for not putting my laundry.

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That doesn't teach him what

I want it to teach him.

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So he's also only five.

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So I'm not super, like,

we're still figuring it out.

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So I'm just curious, what is

the consequence in your house?

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Sara: Great question.

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And first I would say at five

years old, kids usually don't

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want to do tasks by themselves.

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So asking him what would help

you put your laundry away.

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Maybe if you just sit on his bed

while he does it, he wants company.

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Figuring out what, and letting

him be part of the solution.

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I have learned that when you invite

someone else to be part of the solution,

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it's much more likely to happen.

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So for my son, yeah, I don't call it.

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a punishment.

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It is, I just think of

it, if this, then that.

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And that way it's within his control.

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if the laundry doesn't get put away,

then something he would do with his

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free time, it's no longer free time.

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that is no longer an option.,

You had 24 hours to do it.

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If you still didn't do it in that

time, then any time past that

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24 hour window, it's okay, then

you don't have any free time.

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no, you're in your room

putting your clothes away.

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And that's one of those things about,

I read in one of the parenting books.

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There was a, Coach said, if you have

three interceptions in a game, you will

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be benched for the rest of the game.

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And he told the quarterback before the

game started very clearly that if this,

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then that, and there was no emotion.

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It was just plain and clear.

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And so with the laundry thing.

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It's always been very clear and

we allow for life to happen.

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trust me, if something, if there's an

extra event or we're out of town, or, I

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mean, of course, like this is going back

to the word of the day, scaffolding, this

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is just scaffolding that gets to be flexed

and it does flex, but yeah, if he's had 24

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hours to do it and then it doesn't happen.

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And there's, there's no extenuating

circumstance that it's okay, then you

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sit in your room and you don't have to

put it away, but you're gonna sit in

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your room and stare at the door until

it gets put away, because again, we're

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setting our kids up for success when

they move out of the house, they need

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these tools to know how to self guide

themselves and taking care of their space.

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, so like my clean clothes, like I said,

when they get to that chair, because

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I do my clothes, my laundry on Sunday.

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So sometimes on Monday it's still there,

I like to do, okay, this is another tool.

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Okay.

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Have I ever told you

about marathon and relay?

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Lacey: No, but I have an idea.

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Sara: I like to break up tasks into

thinking of them as marathon or relay.

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So let's say all the clothes are clean.

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Marathon is, you dump them all out,

you sort them into categories, you

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fold them, you immediately hang them

up, put them in their cubby, wherever

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they go, and you do it all at once.

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I'm a very relay person.

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So like the clean laundry will get dumped

on the bed, and then maybe, I don't know,

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the next time I walk by, it could be an

hour, it could be two hours, I might put

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them into different categories, sort them.

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And then, if I have momentum.

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I'll pair the socks.

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I'll fold the pants.

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I'll do the things.

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And then sometimes

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I just leave it all

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Lacey: You sort and then fold?

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Sara: Yes.

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Lacey: while

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folding.

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Sorry.

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Now you're, you're

blowing my mind right now.

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. Sara: Okay.

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And here is why I'm glad you asked.

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I am never saying there's one

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Lacey: Oh

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Sara: things.

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You do what works for you.

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I have found for myself, I always

talk about the decision tree.

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A or B, A or B.

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I find it easier for myself to

sort into categories all at once.

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If I sort and fold, I'm going into

two different parts of my brain.

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I'm picking up a sock.

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I'm looking for the other sock.

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I'm folding the socks.

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Okay, now I'm picking up shorts.

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Okay, now I'm folding shorts.

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If I just go shorts, socks,

top, if I'm just sorting into

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categories, I do that so fast.

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Then if you have five t shirts, And I

fold my t shirts like my gym shirts.

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Then I'm just folding all the five

shirts the same at the same time.

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So I'm not going between

how do I fold my pants?

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How do I fold my socks?

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How do I fold my I'm doing

like, I always say to people

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all the time, like with like,

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Lacey: You are blowing my

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mind.

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Because I, so remember I have this

bag full of clothes that could be

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anybody's, could be any type of thing.

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And I sit down and in my mind,

I have to fold, sort and fold.

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And it could be millions of categories.

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But now I'm realizing, oh, what

if I just sorted to start it with?

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Even if I just sorted it back into bags,

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Sara: you could.

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I would not go back into bags.

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To me, that's taking a step

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Lacey: Okay,

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but I but as you're saying this I'm like,

yeah, I not only am I categorizing by what

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it is I'm categorizing by whose it is and

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Sara: I guess you could do it

into a bag or a basket , if it's

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going into a different room.

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So if you're like, oh, this is

all Iris's stuff, then it would

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go in a different basket because

then you'd have to transport it.

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I'm going to blow your

mind even once up further.

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We do our laundry by person.

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Everyone has their laundry day.

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I am not mixing people's socks together.

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I'm not trying to figure

out whose sock is this.

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I'm not.

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And then sheets are done on one day.

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Towels will do that in one day.

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I do not, you know, that whole

thing of like, you're folding a

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towel, you're pulling off a sock.

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Like I don't do that.

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Lacey: All of our stuff is

different enough that it is a very

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quick decision on whose it is.

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So that isn't hard for me.

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I will say when I do folding and I get

something that's like a random towel or

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sheet, I do just set that to the side.

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now that we're talking about it,

I do a little bit of this already,

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but I do wonder if it would make it.

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Especially for the kids clothes,

because I either take it to their

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room and fold it if it's all theirs,

or I fold it in our bed, and then

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I take the piles to their room.

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Sara: The

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other thing that you could do is, so I

like that the bags, because you have two

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floors of laundry, so you're carrying the

bag between floors, but if all the laundry

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up on the second floor, it's just, is this

going to Isaac's room or Isaac's room?

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Iris's room, you could

have designated baskets.

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So they're wider and shallower.

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You could fold it all on your bed

and just put it into each basket.

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And then the key is, is that

basket is only for clean.

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And then that clean basket goes

on top of the dresser or whatever.

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But if it's like white or some

distinct color, that's not the

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hamper, then you could sit in your

bed and do it all in one place.

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This is my jam.

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again,

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Going back to your home as

an organization, you are

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streamlining repetitive processes.

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Is that the, is that

the plural of process?

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have no idea.

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Processes?

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Lacey: it is.

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Sara: You're streamlining these things

that you do all the time so that you can

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conserve your energy for the one offs.

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Or for the, things that you want

to be doing or for things that

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come up that were unexpected.

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So make laundry, meal planning,

cleaning, mail as routine, as

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least mental strain as possible.

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Have all of these things be so just

automated, no brainer, that It is

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just you don't even think about it.

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Lacey: so can I just tell you

what my takeaway is going to be?

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I think what I'm going to do is I'm

going to see if we can get a colored

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hanger thing, like we already have one

color for Isaac and one color for Iris.

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And then I can sort and pull their clothes

out and put them in the appropriate bag.

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Cause sometimes things get messed up

in the move from one room to another.

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And then I get frustrated cause I'm

like, man, I took the time to fold that.

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So, I wouldn't fold them yet.

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I would put them in there unfolded

and then take it back to their

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room, get it out, and then

they would have to put it away.

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I would put Iris's away because

she still can't even reach

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half of the things for her.

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but what that also does is then I have

an empty bag because each of my kids

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have a hamper or a basket, and then

sometimes Joe will just take that,

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but then they don't have that basket.

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there in their room again.

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So then that's where dirty

clothes end up more on the floor.

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So what that does is when that gets

put away, it has created that bag for

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Joe to be able to use, to bring their

stuff back up or as their stuff comes.

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So

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Sara: Yeah.

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Lacey: I am seeing it.

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It's happening.

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I love it so much.

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Sara: It's just, it's a house factory.

472

You're doing this stuff over and

over and it's just make that process.

473

and

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efficient.

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All back to the closed chair, which is the

closed chair can be part of this process.

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, if it's clean and you haven't gotten

it all the way there, if it's not

477

all the way dirty and you want to

just have it in a holding place, just

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making sure it's designated clearly and

that things maybe don't start to live

479

there unless that's your intention,

480

which is also fine.

481

But I would say if things start living

there, Then you get to ask yourself,

482

is the putting away process, is there

something that is hindering this?

483

Is there something that could

be easier in the process?

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Lacey: So in my old

485

house, I

486

could.

487

I could.

488

tell you right away in my old house,

it was a very narrow, long closet,

489

so it was very difficult for me to

get in and put things away easily.

490

That was my barrier every time.

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right now, I think it's because I

need to start getting rid of some

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of my hanging clothes that just live

there that I haven't worn in a while.

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Cause I don't just, for some reason, the

ones that I do wear, I'm like, well, I'm

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going to wear this one tomorrow anyway.

495

You know what I mean?

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So like I, I think I need

to refresh so that it fits.

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Like it's not, I don't

know, it's not dead.

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I don't know what else to say.

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let me just say it starts off

in that I do all that folding.

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I have set aside the

clothes to be hung up.

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And at that point for

me, I'm exhausted, right?

502

Cause that was a lot for me, a lot

of armament and that kind of stuff.

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but then the thing that prevents it

from happening later on is I'm like,

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I'll probably just wear that dress

soon anyway, so I won't hang it up.

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Sara: Well, and that is interesting.

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I love this statistic, which I can't

trace back its origin, but it is something

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to the effect of you wear 20 percent

of your closet, 80 percent of the time.

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So that 20 percent that you laundered

that is the that is 80 percent of what you

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wear So what's really interesting is

if everything's in the laundry and

510

I know there's seasons and I know

there's special activities but if You

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do your laundry and that's all removed

for your closet and your dressers.

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Look at what's left

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and When is the last time I wore this?

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What am I keeping this for?

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And I know that's boring and

that's, that's under the header

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of processing, which I've said

before, processing is super boring.

517

But if you're realizing your drawers

don't close easily because they're

518

jam packed, it's time to process.

519

If you realize you're, you know, when

you go to try to hang something up and

520

you're like

521

shoving,

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And you're using all your body

weight to get that hanger in there.

523

It's time to process.

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And the thing of but I don't want

to like not have enough clothes.

525

You wear 20 percent of your closet.

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We can only wear one, one

of everything at a time.

527

And even if you did laundry every

14 days, you still only need 14.

528

of each item.

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So it's just something

interesting to think about.

530

Lacey: I want to know everyone's

mental math about when, how

531

something can be worn again.

532

Because I think everyone has their

own idea of this, and you definitely

533

have one, and I know I have one.

534

So I want to talk about that.

535

And two, I want to give you all

an update on my clothes chair

536

and laundry system journey.

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I'm going to make it happen and we're

going to come back and revisit this.

538

We'll have a part two.

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laundry

540

part two.

541

can we do real quick gratitude?

542

Real quick.

543

Sara: Yeah.

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Lacey: Okay.

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I am grateful for therapy.

546

I had a really big, breakthrough

in therapy this week and I

547

just feel like a new person.

548

I am very content and happy and

not in a like ignoring things way.

549

Like I feel at peace with a lot

of the things in my life and

550

I'm just so thankful for that.

551

Sara: Thankful.

552

Love it.

553

I am thankful for air conditioning.

554

It's very hot.

555

I'm so thankful we have air conditioning.

556

The

557

Lacey: Me too.

558

too.

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Thank you, Sarah.

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Sara: Thank you, Lacey.