On this week’s mini-episode, my sister Becky, my cousin Lydia, and I talk about the recent Barbie movie and how it impacted us. We dive into the themes of feminism and gender studies that the movie presents and share our personal experiences with them.
Throughout the episode, we share funny anecdotes and personal stories that relate to the movie’s themes. It’s a great conversation that got us thinking and we hope it does the same for you!
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Transcript
Welcome to sharing the middle. We recovering perfectionist overachievers and anyone in the middle of a struggle come together to learn, to embrace the messy middles of life. I'm Lacey, your friend in the middle and guide who's claim to fame this week is actually buying my merch that I. I'm going to be selling on the middle and I just love it so much. So more info about that soon. I'm just excited that I actually got it this week. Today's episode is a mini episode, but it's not really mini. today I talk with my sister, Becky and my cousin, Lydia. About the Barbie movie. We all went to see it together with some of my aunts and both of them have seen it multiple times. We just really have a great conversation. About how the movie impacted us, our thoughts on it as far as like culturally, and then we get into really interesting conversations about how our family has shaped our experience as women and with femininity and. it's really cool and has gotten me thinking a lot. Also editing Lacy here too. Share that my sister, Becky is in this, which means she will be yelling some, she gets excited and that's fine. I do work on making it better. But at least she doesn't sound like she's shouting the whole time, this time, unlike the episode with my mom and sisters for earlier this year. So. Enjoy this not so many Barbie episode. And let's jump right in. The idea for this is Becky and I were riding home from seeing the Barbie movie all together. And she, first of all, just laughed for the entire time thinking about the Ken storyline. So Becky really, zeroed in on on the Kenough of it all. But she was like, can we do a podcast about this? And I said, yes, we can. And we will invite Lydia.
Becky:I need to speak of this. It was just so powerful the way it hit me. And like, all I could do was laugh because of the
Lacey:She did just laugh.
Becky:of this, the way this has been displayed to me in my life. Over the past year has been like to see it then on the big screen. And there are moments where I'm like, Oh, that definitely happened to me. The guys singing to you and playing guitar, staring at you uncomfortably has happened to me in the past year. And it is a very strange interaction. And is there any way to handle that? No. And it's supposed to be like flattering and sweet. And at the same time, it's really freaking weird. But then you're like, Oh, that's nice. And then you're like, no, I just like. It's. there's just, that's just one example of moments that I was like, Oh, that happened. That happened.
Lydia:the four hours later on
Becky:Oh my
Lydia:too is that's it just never stops. There's that one guy at the party that's.
Becky:Oh my god in the song. Oh
Lacey:Song choice was spot on.
Lydia:I actually didn't, didn't even realize what that song was about until I, looked it up and, apparently it's, it was him writing in the, in the perspective of his ex girlfriend who, didn't treat him so well. And I was like, oh, I didn't, I, I don't think I've ever listened to the lyrics of that song and, actually known what it was about. So that was an, it was an interesting choice,
Lacey:You know how you associate some like bands or artists with people? I associate Matchbox 20 with Becky. So as soon as I heard that, I was like, this is like for you. Like I just instantly right away.
Lydia:Oh, it was so funny. Yeah, that was the perfect choice, I think.
Becky:The messaging that I have realized I have received as a woman is that like in a relationship, that is my role is to like, to be the one who adapts and I need to be able to be pushed around here and push you around and picked up and put down and arranged and it's my job to be the accommodating one. I don't want to blame anybody for putting that in my head. I really think that there was a large collective amount of people who fueled that certainly. And because that was like my base understanding of how I should show up. That is how I showed up. And of course, if that is how I show up, I am going to gravitate towards men who are like, Hey! You should be that and I'm like, yes, I should be that. But then I'm standing there going, what, why, how, why is this happening?
Lydia:Right.
Becky:why am I doing this? Why are you doing that? Why? I want this to stop. And then it's I'm the one who's changed the rules. And that's not fair to look at somebody and be like, nope, time out. We're just not going to do this anymore. And to think that the way that was just put there, that she was like, Oh, you have to show up and we're going to pretend to be a brainwashed one. play the game and you're going to nod and she, the way they describe quite specifically, right?
Lacey:specifically. Yeah.
Becky:Like you're going to do this. And I'm like, holy crap, I did that. And you're going to do this. Holy crap. I did that too. all of it.
Lacey:I will say I told Becky to in the car that growing up. I thought that's how all men were like, I thought that I had to be that Barbie. And that all men were those types of Kens, but the more that I think about it, the more than I'm like, Oh, I learned that there are Allens in the world. that's one of the reasons why I love Joe so much is he's more of an Allen than a Ken. And I just didn't even know growing up that existed.
Lydia:Yeah.
Lacey:I'm lucky that I had my aha moment about that earlier on, but I just, I thought that's how men were and that's how they had to be and that, that was going to be my life
Lydia:I, the, one of the most interesting things that I thought that somebody had pointed out was when Ken got to the real world and the comparison was like, this is every little boy that you grow up with that, is exposed to the patriarchy and now they're, they have to become a part of it. It's it's like the losing of the innocence and it's sad because you're like, I know, I grew up with all these. Like boys who either grew up to be like more like Alan, more supportive and wanting to, be equal, you know what I mean? Like more, yeah, like the power dynamic and just not being there. And I thought that was really interesting because I was like, Growing up with really great male, role models, I also know, I've had, on the other hand, seen that there's a bunch of different types of, of ways that people go around that. But, yeah, I just thought that was really interesting because I think they did a really good job of, portraying that he was, like, not really trying to do anything bad. He was just, ignorant and innocent, and he got corrupted by the world that he stepped into. And I thought that was an interesting, parallel to ours.
Lacey:yeah. One of my big things is I've taken a lot of women's studies classes. So the themes in this movie are like. Feminism and gender studies like 101. So for me, I'm like, yeah, I know this. And And we were at, our, cousin's daughter's birthday party. And it's really interesting because neither one of you were there, but a lot of the people that we went with and others who have seen it were there too, and we had talked about it, and it was really interesting to hear from our aunts who are lesbians, to be like, yeah, we already knew all this, none of this is new information, and I just had this moment where I was just like, I didn't even put that together. That their perspective of not. Engaging with that kind of man, typically, in especially a romantic way, meant that they didn't need those women's studies classes. They just lived that experience. And it was just a big Oh, okay. Didn't even think about that one.
Lydia:Right. I was thinking about that too because, my mom had mentioned that, that, during the discussion that it just didn't hit them as hard and she was like, it's surprising. But yeah, I think that's what it is, It's more for the people that don't get that. And I feel like you can watch this movie and, ignore all the messages if you really want to, it's actually not that hard to miss them. Like you, you could miss it if you want and just be watching a funny, silly movie, And I think some people did leave thinking that way, but I think if you like, allow yourself to think about the things that are being presented in it, then. you can get so much out of it. You can just go on forever. Every little line, like even just like in the song, how there's no mirrors in Barbie land or Barbie world, whatever it's like, why, like you can take every little detail and just have a huge discussion about it and like how it, relates to our world.
Lacey:I will say the other thing that I thought was really funny my mom hadn't seen it. And so we had an hour and a half drive from the party to home and I'm explaining it to mom and I have to be like, and then this, you have to know this from the storyline. And as I was explaining it, I was like, this is even more entwined and intense than I thought.
Lydia:Yeah, when I saw it the first time I was like at the end of it I felt it went too fast and then it was funny because after I saw it with my mom she said these exact same thing and after seeing it the second time I was like I Understand way better now just seeing it the second time and it didn't feel as fast So it's funny like how different it is Like, when you watch it again, and you have a little more time to let things sink in. Cause my mom said the same thing, after she saw it the second time, she was like, It hit me harder. certain things hit me harder that, the first time just went past me real quick, and I didn't get a lot of time to sit with it. But, yeah, I, it's just so packed, with so many things. oh my gosh, you could go on forever.
Becky:I took my girls to see it I watched it twice. Oh my gosh. Bell, it hit her a little differently than it hit Millie. So part of me actually thought that a lot of it was going to go over Millie's head because
Lydia:Yeah, Yeah,
Becky:10. And She did do a pretty good job of like, she'd look at me like, I don't understand this. And I'd be like, we'll talk later. I'll explain later. but Millie gets in the car and she's like, so is that why guys are so dumb? And I'm like, Okay, maybe like I, I see that why that you came to that conclusion, but maybe we should verbalize this a little bit really right. and I was just, Belle was her perspective was a lot different. Because I feel like bell has one foot in like super feminist land, right? when she went to DC instead of wearing the presidential dream team shirt that the school printed off, we had a female version for her to wear at the same time. When everybody was wearing the original gangster shirt that had George Washington on it, Belle had her Notorious RBG shirt on. So she has this. And then at the same time, like her dad has very traditional male beliefs. And she was just like, Ooh, both neither. And I'm like, okay, it is both and neither. And she just was like, and I'm like, that's the part we have to figure out
Lacey:yeah.
Becky:is that because in Barbie land, it is like one way. And in the real world, it's the other. But the truth is it really could be both.
Lydia:And it is both. See, that's what I think is really cool about the movie is you could sit and pick through it and be like, this, goes against this. like this cancels that out and makes, you know, the point not. Hit is hard, but really, that's how life is, everything, nothing's black and white, everything exists as once, and, some things do, cancel each other out, Two things can exist at once, without, with, like, also canceling each other out. It's kind of interesting how that works.
Becky:Did you catch when the lady was presenting to the, Supreme Court in Barbieland, when she's doing this speech and then she's like, and I can have emotions and present information in a logical way at the same time, and that doesn't debilitate me, it actually makes me better. Right?
Lacey:Yes.
Becky:And I was like that, that, both and neither.
Lydia:That's so perfect. Yeah, that killed me. And the other thing, they didn't, they weren't like, thank you so much, I want to thank. They were just like, I deserve this. when they were accepting their award.
Becky:like, yeah, I do deserve
Lydia:great lesson. yeah, you worked for this. You worked hard for this. You deserve it. you don't need to thank anybody.
Becky:You don't have to justify or point out all the people that you hurt along the way or the balls that you dropped to get there. like you worked hard, you deserve it.
Lydia:Yeah. I loved that little piece. That was like... one of the smaller parts that was like a very big point that you could expand on.
Lacey:I know. I had seen some people talking about it. And like I said, I'm, on the feminist scale, very feminist. I've taken many, uh, gender studies classes and whatnot. And so there's a lot to talk about this idea of there's not a lot of intersectionality in the movie. Like it's really. a white woman feminism movie, which is true. And I, that, that is a very valid argument. And I actually, when I was watching it, cause I went into it thinking that, and I was like, Oh, Barbie land is what white women feminism want. They want that clean cut line. They want it to be clear and like, see, we have people of all colors and all, you know what I mean? But there's no dealing with the messiness. And so that's where I came from it. As hopeful for a more inclusive feminism in the future where we can embrace the messiness. We can embrace being wrong because I think that's a big part of it too. there is no being wrong in Barbie land. So of course they don't know how to deal with that. And so I, I don't know, I just, my, my brain has really been thinking about that. And that's where I say, I saw this as Feminism 101 and I'm like at Feminism 405 and I'm just excited for people to see it so we can all get to the same page.
Lydia:Mmhmm.
Becky:and maybe this is where I saw some of that, It is when they were, Essentially doing to the Kens what is done to women, is where men play women against each other as a way to distract from their own behavior, there have been some gentlemen friends that I have made who have this skill to an art. And that was the part that just smacked me in the face. I think I was not ready to be like, you have met every single version of this Ken and heard and watched and thought to yourself, really, they really think that, but
Lydia:Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Mmhmm.
Becky:wanted to be like, don't do it. Don't do the thing because you know, it works. Don't do the thing because I know don't distract from the actual problem and try to like essentially use their masculine energy to create that like ability like great boy man that second the beach battle.
Lacey:That's
Becky:The second time you watch it, the amount of masculine energy, I don't know what else to call it. Some of the outwardly phallic symbols and like sexually assertive, aggressive behaviors in that are just like laughable. Like it really is you're like, Oh, they just were like decided that they're going to take whatever this was. And just pump it up to make it as big as possible. And the thing is that I think that a lot of, a lot of men who don't fully understand feminism get the idea that women are saying men are bad. Women are good. And it, I don't see that as the messaging that is not the messaging. I want to come from me because I see as masculine and feminine energy, and that we all come up with our unique mix. And the idea is that I can recognize the feminine energy in a man, and he can recognize the masculine energy in me, and it doesn't have to be like, mine's bigger than yours. Like, why is that the decision? It isn't all about this one's strong and this one's weak. No, it's, these are a balance, and we need to recognize that. Maybe I show up with 80 20 and they show up with 60 40 and we end up with 200% between the two of us of both
Lydia:Mmhmm.
Becky:and that's what we want.
Lacey:that's what I want. I've said before, one of my favorite things about Joe is if I lose him in a store, he is smelling candles. I love that. I love that about him and he will own it and he will celebrate it. And I also think it's funny because I would say our family in general, the women have a very masculine energy. not women to stand on the sidelines. They, mom didn't want any of us to be cheerleaders because why would you be a cheerleader? You could go do it.
Becky:Can I tell you. Mom is not the only female in our family that has that very strong belief. Do you know that?
Lacey:I'm just, but I also think about like our aunt Peggy, who is like the most accomplished athlete I personally know, you know what I mean? I just, there is nothing Peggy cannot do. And I just, I don't, I think it's just funny. And I do wonder if that's part of the reason why, when we watch this. I don't mourn not having the feminine energy that I have, Like I'm comfortable with the gray because I think I see that in the people I grew up with all the time.
Becky:And that's why I think, like, when we see feminism, we're like, yes, feminine can look like these, all these shades of pink, right? Every shade of pink. And hey, why not bleed that into a little bit of purple all the way into the, is this blue or purple color, right?
Lydia:Mmhmm.
Becky:And that's normal. That's normal feminine energy for our family. the women are cutting the grass. They are, building a fire pit. They
Lacey:Just casually on a Saturday, they're building a fire with it.
Becky:Hey, it's just it's noon on Saturday, right after lunch. What am I going to do? I'm going to build a fire pit. I don't like, but. That's how it was, or it like, like one of the first people who taught Millie how to fish was candy. Like this, there, there was no, this is your job. No, it's, this is the stuff that needs to get done. This is the stuff we want to do. Everybody's pitching in. We're all doing everything.
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:and I think that's what makes some of the stuff that you're like, wait, what?
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:But it also makes it tricky because I expect men to show up with that same kind of energy. And I think there's times where they look at me and they're like, I don't think you understand how this works. And I'm like, no,
Lacey:me?
Becky:really. I really think I do. I don't, what is also odd is that many of the men that I encounter, I think they like the masculine energy that I show up with because I can be assertive and direct and I say what I want and I'm not shy about things and I just will put it out all on the table and not be like,
Lydia:Mm-hmm.
Becky:about it. And they're like, thank goodness, but then if I don't surrender control, then they're like, wait a minute. And I'm like, wait, these things travel together. I can't give one and not have the other come with it. I just, it's how it shows up.
Lacey:I know that I started this part of the conversation, but you have really blown my mind with this idea of like, yeah, we have all kinds of femininity in our family and I have a lot of different role models for us, or I'm just, I think our family is special in a lot of ways, but now I'm thinking more about that. I'm like, son of a, yeah. Okay. That's true too.
Lydia:Yeah. For, I like, and when you said that, it like reminded me of I don't think when I can't remember being a kid and anyone being like, no, that's a boy thing. because we just, we, you're right, we were fishing when we were, you know, grandpa Candy was all teaching us like we were. Like, playin sports, we, I don't think ever in my life anyone in our family or my parents or anything has been like, oh that's a boy thing, That just never really happened.
Lacey:But I do wonder if the men in our family have the same benefit. Of feeling comfortable to express feminine because I don't know if I know the answer to that.
Becky:I will say there are parts of it that I can point to. That I can see that existed. but I don't, I like to what level, like it's hard to say, like how they experienced that, but grandma wanted all of her boys know how to make something. Right. I remember, when I was young, I'm talking about Dave's entry in the chili cook off and how his like Dave's chili, I've heard about Michael's pizza. And there's these things that they're like, no, and it isn't just a grill.
Lydia:Right.
Becky:It is like
Lacey:Dave makes the pasta salad on vacation. Like, why? I don't know, but he does.
Becky:in the kitchen, there is expectation for men to be present. And
Lacey:Pawpaw, but I think an exception we all just made. But at some point she did
Becky:ever hear grandma say you can make that yourself?
Lacey:I did. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky:You know how to make that?
Lydia:Except he doesn't. Like,
Lacey:I hated it.
Becky:But and at the same time, how many times we went shopping, right? Black Friday shopping, Ludwig ladies, Black Friday shopping
Lacey:I wasn't part of that very often. Cause that's, my masculine energy doesn't care for that.
Becky:and you know what? Papa would help us carry everything in. And he was so excited that we would do that and he would weigh in where he thought he had information to be supportive. And it wasn't like, I only weigh in on the boy stuff. It is, it would be everything for, I think that's a good color. Really, Papa, like you have opinions. Okay, but that's he also enjoyed art and photography and painting. And I think, that was his way of nurturing that, it is okay to want to paint and enjoy art and the, I want to say that the fuzzier, right?
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:And now as to how that trickled down. I don't know. I will say that there's days that I see my brother and he's these are salmon shorts.
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:are salmon shorts. And I have a matching salmon top and it has flamingos on it.
Lacey:are the white loafers that I hunt for and found at Marshall's.
Becky:and he like owns it. He's no, like I can wear this color. don't even question it.
Lacey:He looks great in it too. He
Becky:He does. He does. He does. He does, but there's so many of those elements, I think, things like seeing Neely with Dave and like the, like loving, nurturing the relationship that they have is that, and so I see it. I don't know how they experience it.
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:I like when Papa passed, I felt like everybody was allowed to cry and react. There wasn't any, like you have to present like this or you need to put that away. It was just whoever can help is going to help. Whatever you can do is what's going to be done. We're going to pull it together. We're going to figure out. And that kind of energy is what we've been brought up with, not your pink, your blue. That,
Lydia:is interesting.
Lacey:is not what I thought our conversation would be, but I'm so glad we're having it. I am like,
Lydia:It can go so many places. I was thinking that too because when I was thinking about what the podcast would be like, I'm like, I wonder if she has like prompts, but I was like, I don't even think we need them because I feel like it'll just with how packed full of
Lacey:if there's anything that I know is I do not need to prepare anything for Becky to talk.
Lydia:Yep.
Becky:I just told somebody today, I was like, Blasey says I have a talking quota.
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:And the gentleman I was talking to goes, I think I can see that.
Lacey:You told me that you told me that you have a talking quota and
Becky:I?
Lacey:you don't meet it at the end of the day,
Becky:I apparently, I
Lacey:you will meet it and whoever is home is the one that's going to get it.
Becky:They're just going to hear it. I don't even expect them to listen. I just need somebody to be like, huh.
Lacey:that's why whenever Becky calls me, I'm like, okay, what's my timeframe? Wait, because there's, I don't think I've ever had a conversation on the phone with Becky. That's less than 15 minutes.
Becky:No.
Lydia:At least you know that about yourself, that's great.
Becky:Can we talk about shoes though? Can we talk about shoes?
Lacey:What would you like to talk about with shoes?
Becky:okay, so the fact that all of this, really starts With her not having her feet in the healed position as like the record stop kind of moment. I'm like, Oh, that one hit me because. And this is weird that this is how this happened, but whatever. I remember when grandma Bradley passed and dad
Lacey:listeners, that's Becky. So Becky's my sister. Lydia is my cousin. So grandma Bradley is on her dad's side, whereas Lydia's on her mom's side. So every once in a while I forget that I'm expecting other people to listen to this. So I should probably do that.
Becky:and dad was telling me about what grandma had on and like the different things that were in her casket with her. And he's and of course she's wearing high heels. And I was like, okay, why, of course she's wearing high heels. Like, why is that the thing? And he was like, she used to love wearing high heels. And apparently, and this is the way it was communicated to me, is that when she stopped wearing high heels, it was kind of like, Oh, I don't get to wear those anymore. she was surrendering to not being able to be feminine anymore. End. I have to tell you, I've had this moment with Kat where I was like, here, look at these shoes. And she said, are these grandma shoes? And I was like, why? She's they don't have any heels. And it was just like, Oh, once you hit a certain age, not only do you get cellulite and wrinkles. and anxiety, but guess what? You can't wear the high heels anymore.
Lydia:hmm.
Becky:So you have to turn in your Barbie card. You are no longer. And I will probably break my ankles multiple times before I surrender my high heels because I have a thorough attachment to them.
Lydia:so funny, I did not, that went right over my head, I didn't think anything about, the feet thing, but that's such a good point,
Becky:And that's where she was like, But I can't, but I can't like, and she was like, I can't even, I don't even know how to walk in these. And then when she's going to see Weird Barbie, who I thoroughly identify with, probably in more bizarre ways than can be described, but she's walking up the steps and she says, Ooh, if my feet were shaped like this, I would never wear heels
Lacey:And I thought, that's why I don't wear heels because I'm not interested in how that feels.
Becky:and I don't care because I want the heels.
Lydia:valid. valid.
Becky:and I'm okay. I'm okay. If my heels make me six, one, I'm fine with that. If you take my high heels away, I'm going to struggle. and that is that was a little bit of a moment for me because I'm like, Ooh, and that day,
Lydia:You're like, that day's gonna come someday, that's
Becky:You're about that. And I'm like, Ooh, that date, like how, like when is that day? Does that mean do I have 10 years? Do I have 12? Do I have
Lydia:Right.
Becky:And then, or is it going to, is the yoga does get lower? is that some point in time it's going to have to be three inches or under does the peel have to be so fat?
Lydia:Yeah, like, when are you gonna have to sacrifice this?
Becky:Yeah. And
Lacey:don't have answers again because
Becky:breaks my brain. It makes my heart hurt to the point where I'm like, not happening. Doesn't matter.
Lacey:We talked a lot at the party about the last line of the movie that she was checking in at the gynecologist and that made our aunt Carol so mad. She's like, I didn't get it. And so I spent most of the party justifying it. And as a woman who went to the gynecologist yesterday, I just want to be like, yeah, it's a thing that we have to do. And I don't hear anybody talking about it.
Becky:No, the beginning of the movie, they have that conversation where she, oh, when they're talking to the, oh, the construction workers, when she's like, by the way, I don't have a vagina. And he's
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:And it was like, she got her vagina. She got the vagina!
Lydia:See,
Becky:She was able to be human. She did the thing. She is there. And she is taking care of herself. And man, if there is one appointment all of us are dodging on a yearly basis, it's that one. And she was psyched to be there.
Lacey:She was nervous, but she did it.
Becky:Finally was there because she finally got her vagina,
Lydia:See, I, that, that was one thing that also just, didn't, it just did not hit me at all. When, until my mom said, Oh, yeah, like she pointed it out and I was like, I don't even think I thought twice of the last line for some reason. I think it just I was like, oh, it's a funny joke. for some reason that did not, I did not catch that piece, which is
Becky:isn't that part of what we mark as womanhood,
Lacey:that is a whole other conversation
Becky:but isn't that one of the you've become a woman, when you have to go to the gynecologist.
Lacey:I will
Lydia:and just like all the... The things that we don't know, that we should know, and we would know from talking with each other about our experiences,
Lacey:Yeah, I actually, I brought up a, that we were at a, at the girls weekend at a late at the lake years ago, and we were on it on the pontoon boat and grandma was there and I looked at her legs and I said grandma. Did the hair on your legs stop growing when you went through menopause? And there was just this moment of silence afterward. Cause I don't think we're talking about menopause and Peggy's response was, why didn't you ask me? And I'm like, I don't know where you're at in the
Lydia:Yeah.
Lacey:but I'm very confident grandma has gone through menopause, but like. Grandma was really cool about it. And she was like, yeah, and then, and then Peggy like, was like, I think might stop growing, you know what I mean? But I just, I, that is like a canon moment of my life of I was brave and asked about something because I hear people joke about menopause, but I don't know anything about it. You know what I mean? And it's a. It's a part of our cycle as women and all this stuff. So I just, I brought that up. I think Natalie was like, Oh, I remember that. Okay. I made an impact for somebody else too.
Lydia:Yeah. That's a great example now because like I, I feel like there are so many conversations like between women that don't happen. And it's like, why, like, why are we not bringing up these conversations? Because now that TikTok exists, I was just saying this the other day, I was like, I learned so much from TikTok. There are so many things like experiences of people my age that I didn't realize was like, a common experience and wasn't just me, and mostly related to Strictly women, subjects like it's crazy how much you don't know until you talk to another woman and you're like, Oh, we both have these experiences like, but why aren't we talking about it? and that brings up like, yeah, why aren't we talking about it? what is the reason that we don't feel comfortable talking about this? Like publicly, yeah.
Becky:Do you know when the clitoris was first put in the anatomy books.
Lydia:No. Was it far too late? I'm assuming?
Lacey:They're like in the early nineties or something.
Becky:Later. It was Oh three, I'm pretty sure. Like it's like it was one of those where I'm like, hold on. I have to sit down. Like what I had an entire body part that people didn't even recognize as a body part.
Lydia:Wow. I did not know
Becky:I graduated high
Lacey:I
Becky:school with a body part that wasn't in the anatomy books when I
Lydia:Wow.
Becky:Hey, that's, and I'm like, what, no wonder we're not having conversations about it because first of all, they're just recognizing all the parts. Hello. I'm going to tell you, there's a lot of men who don't know the actual shape of that because they only know what they see it. Frankly, I don't expect them to. I doubt their mom is pulling out a book, like, where they're like, look, honey, what's this? no.
Lydia:Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, you're right.
Lacey:Picturing you sit down with the under and him being like, no mom. No. Oh God. No.
Becky:Sandra would just be like, how long do I have to sit here and listen to me? And I would be like, until we get to the end, he'd be like, talk fast. But why? So if we look at how late we were to even recognizing. Women's like just issues, just, like my endometriosis at one point in time, like in the early treatment of it was like, I just guess you're just going to have to suck it up. that was the decision at one point in time. And when I would explain how debilitating it could be. There was that idea that you just need to, you just need to suck it up. And there were times where I probably pushed through instead of listening to my body. And how many times can somebody tell you just ignore that pain before you just stop listening to your body altogether? You stop thinking it has value. You stop thinking that it has like it's trust that you could trust it. And. and then, one of the times I'm driving, we were driving home from like one of our surgeries, mom starts bawling. She's driving. And she's like, I cannot believe when the doctor showed us what the inside of your body looks like, how much pain have you been just enduring? And I was just I don't even know how to answer that question anymore. I just keep going. And what bar do we have to measure against that? and mom would say things like I have really painful periods at one point, and then she like even and I'm like, yeah, you also did natural labor four times like I'm not sure we can use your pain scale as like normal people, but whatever.
Lacey:it's with PCOS, which this is something that I have, 10% of women have PCOS. That's 5% of our population have PCOS. And that's a lot of people. can you imagine if, But that is more than a lot of other diseases and when I follow someone and she's part of an advocacy group for it and people are like, why are you advocating for it? Because everything about it is made up at this point. There's no real treatments and a huge part of our population has it. And the solution is like diet and exercise. okay, now that I have a chronic fatigue problems, I can't take care of it with diet and exercise. What am I supposed to do?
Lydia:Suck it up! Yeah. I feel same thing with PMDD, I feel, I've met so many people who I've told like, that's not just your period, that's, you need to go get your levels checked and do something because you should not, wanna kill yourself. that should not be happening, and we've just been told that's normal, and so Me finally joining a PMDD group and like seeing all these people talk and then I Chose to go to the doctor and be like I think I have PMDD confirm it and then she did but it was like It was ridiculous that I had been to the doctor A million times my entire life for the same issue over and over again, and they're just like oh Yeah, you just have bad periods like your hormones are just bad. Sorry but really PMDD, affects probably, people are just now figuring out about it, it's honestly ridiculous, the fact that our periods are just like, oh, that's just how it is, you just have to deal with it, it's being a woman, but it's it, no,
Lacey:torture.
Lydia:yeah, and, that affects your life in so many ways, the fact that It can affect your, relationships, your work life, just, even the way you interact with, your significant other, you can have, such irrational mood swings, and, just the fact that it's just like, oh, that's normal, oh, well, that just drives me absolutely insane, even now, Going to the gynecologist and, getting a biopsy or getting a, a specific birth control put in, there's, no, pain management at all. It's
Lacey:Oh, I'm getting an IUD put in a few weeks, and it was like, here, take 600 milligrams of ibuprofen. Now, I will say once, I've had three IUDs in my life. This will be my fourth one. The... The first one was awful, but now that I've had kids, it's like just shoved in there and let's go. So I do think your body changes over time. And
Lydia:Yeah,
Lacey:so for me, it's not going to be a big deal. But I remember the first time I had it, it was huge.
Lydia:At least give, and I heard that someone went and was like, can I have pain management? And they were like, yeah, if you ask. It's why are you not offering this? That sucked, and I don't want to do that again. So I don't understand why they're, they don't offer pain management for, yeah, I don't know. I just think I jokingly say all the time, I'm like, oh, because the government just doesn't care about women. Like they're just so behind on every single condition that is, specifically for women or to women, it's absolutely ridiculous. What?
Becky:Isn't that line something like that? They're like, of course not because men haven't had to deal with that or something.
Lydia:Oh, it might have been the anxiety part. they don't take it out on them.
Becky:But the anxiety part was great. Or the lady was like, Oh, that overwhelming, like looming fear that you're not really sure what it's associated with. That's anxiety. And at a certain age, you're just really going to have that. The reason why I keep making the faces I'm making. Okay. So there's one word that is being thrown all over the world. Narcissist. How many times have you heard this person's a narcissist, this person's a narcissist, da da da da da? The numbers are 1% of the population. 1%. 1%.
Lydia:Yep.
Becky:We're ready to label all these people narcissists and sign up, for that, but we don't feel comfortable with labels like. PMDD, like it's it's, we're told like, that's normal. not normal. It's not,
Lacey:I,
Becky:being a narcissist, which is 1% of the population. And we'll smash this other one down. That's 50% of the population.
Lydia:Yep.
Becky:But that's why I'm like, Oh, like why are we putting some of these on pedestals? this is huge. No, it's not. It's not
Lydia:Right.
Lacey:I think, and this is not just a male or female problem, I think there's such a lack of empathy in our society of truly one, truly taking a moment to understand what somebody else is going through, and only seeing your world through your lens. I often find when I have a really core disagreement with someone, it is because they do not seem to have that ability to see beyond their perspective of life. And so I think that's why telling stories and talking about, that's why I do what I've been doing is talking about what I've been going through because I've done, objectively, if you would write down all the things that you're supposed to do in life, I have done them.
Becky:checked. All the
Lacey:Checked all the boxes, done all the things, and I,
Becky:did not land where you were promised to land
Lacey:Yeah. And don't, again, I say this all the time, I have all the privilege in the world and all that stuff. But if I have all the privilege in the world and checked all the boxes, did everything I was supposed to do, and I'm still struggling this much, there's a problem.
Lydia:Yeah.
Lacey:And I hate that me as a middle class white lady is the person being like, but I did everything right. So let me tell you that there's a problem. I think that's dumb because we should have been listening to people all along, but if another middle class white lady looks at me and is like, Oh, I could be like her. Let me put myself in that perspective. It's at least worth a shot. And that's why the America Ferrera speech and the fact that her speech is what took those Barbies out of mindless patriarchy. the fact that was the act that did it for them. I'm like, that's what I'm doing. That's what I'm here. That's why I'm
Lydia:Mm
Lacey:I'm doing. I am telling you about my messiness so that you can start to see the messiness in the world.
Becky:the conflicting messages and the way she was just like, no, I hear the conflicting messages too. And that you could see her daughter go. Yes. and you could even see her have a moment where like, how do you get this? And I still feel like I'm alone with this information because they didn't, the two of them, right? Mother and daughter didn't have that conversation and here. Mom's struggling with it. Daughter's struggling with it. They're just a different ages, different places. And so as she's putting words to it and they're like, Oh, I feel that. and that I think is part that like many of us sitting there is yes. And the thing is that even like the way men praise women is conflicting messages.
Lydia:Mm-hmm.
Becky:and, I've had this conversation with. One of the guys that I've met and I was like, women are like a walking contradiction, but that's what men like about women too, is that they're a walking contradiction. Like all the things that they're like, she's this, but she's this and she's this and she's that. How many songs can you find
Lacey:I'm a bitch. I'm a mother. I'm a child. I'm
Becky:no, how about no, the ones that men sing to women.
Lacey:Oh yeah.
Becky:like there's, she's every woman. I think Brad Paisley has one that like, Where it's she's this and she's that,
Lydia:I feel oh my gosh. Especially with I, this happens, there's like a big conversation online about body counts and that's the biggest thing that gets on my nerves because it's like a man will be like, if you slept with too many guys, you're, you're not worth anything anymore, but, If you say no to them, it's not okay. It's it's, that's always been a thing that bothers me, because, yeah, it's they want you to be a sexual being, but only to them. if you've been sexual in the past, it's not okay, it's only okay in the moment with them, and I've never liked that. that's always bothered me, that, that's the double standard, and you see that in songs all the time.
Lacey:the time. yeah,
Becky:but this is the messaging we put out and put out. And then at the same time, there's a lot of us that are like, yes. I, I will wear my high heels with, I don't know, a pair of jeans and a hoodie. I will! Or a flannel. Or, I'm both just everywhere. it's all one big mess here. I am
Lydia:And it can be for you, you know what I mean? It doesn't need to be for anyone else,
Becky:But at the same time, there are men who are like, yes, but then they're like, ooh, but no.
Lydia:but that's too intimidating.
Becky:wear my flannel, wear my hoodie, but don't do the job that you would have to wear if you wear my flannel or you wear my hoodie. And it's you want me to be both this way, but I'm not allowed to be both this way. How do you switch that on and off?
Lacey:Well, any last thoughts about Barbie that you would want to impart or share?
Lydia:there is one thing that I noticed at the end that I didn't notice the first two times and I noticed the third time and I was like, this is crazy because, something that I think about a lot. In the very last scene when she's telling Ken, like she's consoling Ken and telling him, he tries to kiss her two or three times during that scene. And. she's already set boundaries a million times in the movie and that, that was super interesting to me because I was like, it was so like quick and you could have missed it. And then the other thing was, she didn't, you got like a cringey feeling when she was like, no, because she wasn't like saying sorry, or she didn't feel threatened by saying no. So it was easy for her to be like. No, but, you're like, Oh, kind of as a dangerous situation, in real life to be like, no, don't kiss me like it. I thought that was really interesting because He, yeah, he tried three times during that, and she just was like, no, and then that was it, he didn't try more, or try again, and I feel like that was really interesting that, she didn't have any problem saying no, and even though she'd set boundaries several times throughout the movie, he still was like, no, I'm gonna try and kiss you,
Becky:and it was every time she was just being nurturing or friendly.
Lydia:Yeah, exactly.
Becky:And then he'd be like, Oh, okay. And she's not like that. And in the beginning, like when they're first, and he is like this close to her and she's just sitting there and I'm like, no woman would let a man get that close to her and If I don't like reciprocate, he's just not going to kiss me. You would be like, right.
Lydia:Yeah.
Becky:But when she just stood there, I was like, Oh, like part of me was like, Oh, that's a no, nope, nope, nope. You need to put every you need to put hands, you need to put by you need to spin. I don't run away.
Lydia:yeah,
Becky:Him just leaning in. Waiting for you to lean back didn't happen.
Lydia:exactly.
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:and later in the movie, like he didn't lean in. He like tackles her, right? And she is no.
Lydia:No.
Becky:Yeah. And then she'd be like, it's okay. It can be Barbie and it can be Ken. And then he's okay, good now. And she's no
Lydia:Exactly. Like that is it, I feel like that just happens all the time in real life. Oh my god. Yeah, and, but yeah, the whole safety of it, of her, not feeling in danger. Even in like you were saying when he was trying to kiss her in the beginning, like it just was oh yeah, I don't need to do this. I don't feel obligated to. And, saying no is nothing, and it's barely a choice. It's fine,
Lacey:I didn't notice that at all. And now I'm going to be thinking about it, Lynn.
Lydia:Yeah.
Becky:Bell. Really? That part Bell was like, man, he just was certain. wanted him. And I'm like, bow. I recently, like it's taken me 40 ish years to learn that there are a large amount of men who just walk around thinking they all want me. And I don't know any women who walk around thinking they all want me.
Lydia:Yeah, exactly.
Becky:And bow was like, it is, it's just like that. And that's how Ken was like. Yeah. Like that in the beach off scene, just
Lydia:Yeah.
Lacey:It's tough. Yeah. What about you, Becky? Any lingering thoughts or comments?
Becky:I am genuinely concerned. No, this is not going to sound like I am genuinely concerned because the men who aren't going to hear this message at all are not going to see the movie right now.
Lacey:Yeah,
Becky:I'm not saying that they all need to, I'm not going to. Beat anybody over the head with this information if they're not ready for it, like Ken probably got a little too much truth in one moment and it maybe broke him a little bit to the point where he needed some reassuring to know that he is enough.
Lydia:Right.
Lacey:absolutely.
Becky:but there's going to be a day where this is going to be streamed into living rooms, and there's going to be fathers. Passing through a room, watching their daughters consume this, or they're going to see that their wife, and they're just going to pick up blips of this and they're going to feel personally attacked. And there isn't a space to help them figure their way through that
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:their options are going to be surrender to it. Say you were wrong, right? this like shame and hate yourself. Should all over yourself, right?
Lacey:Yeah. Don't shit all over yourself. That's another piece of merch I'm getting soon. a mug that says stop shitting all over yourself.
Lydia:I love that.
Becky:we're going to create the space where we're going to be telling men should all over yourself but don't
Lacey:Yeah.
Becky:which is creating the exact same environment we've been saying is unhealthy and they're going to either going to want to fight it because that's how we protect ourselves, right? We fight things. And we deny them
Lacey:was that whole scene.
Becky:either aren't going to hear it at all, or we're going to take him out at the knees. And that to me is nah, like this is where things just go awry this is where people veer off into these extreme ways and it's going to polarize the situation as opposed to inviting more people into the gray, the both. Place, the openness and that's where I'm like, I love that it sheds a light on all of this. But I think how directly it doesn't is going to adversely affect a lot of men. What I love for all of them to have a moment where they're like, Oh my, I have been acting like this. I would like to not be like this anymore. That is not how masculine energy works. Like it protects first. So if it protects them first, why are we presenting it to them as an attack? Because they're just going to protect more. And I'm just like, so I'm frustrated because it's like, there it is. This is the message. This is the message. But we have wrapped it in a way that I don't know that it's going to be heard. And that, that just, that just bums me out.
Lydia:Yeah. I think the op, or the good side of that, though, the fact that it's so direct can work in a way, cause let's say it wasn't super direct, would this movie be as much of a talking point? And would it have even been as big of a deal, in society without it being so obvious? And then also, the other thing I think is interesting is my mom, when she left, she was like, it was kind of man hating. I was like, how? And I was trying to like, get her to explain how, and she was like, Ken didn't really matter in Barbieland. I was like, They were independent. They just didn't need Ken. He was just there. Like he, they weren't mean to Ken, they weren't like disrespected, disrespecting Ken. They just didn't need him. And that was kind of like, and she was like, oh, like I. You're right. I guess I get what you mean. And like how Barbie was very supportive to Ken throughout the entire movie. you're so brave, Ken. oh, she was hyping him up the whole time. And so I was like, I don't know. I didn't see, I didn't see like man hating in there. I just saw, like the hard truth of because there was a moment where The men, like one of the kens is like, we were only fighting because we didn't know who we were. That was like the biggest thing to me, because it's like, men are fighting other men because they don't. know how to express, that, that's like kind of what I got from that is that I just lost my train of thought.
Becky:Fighting is how they know.
Lydia:yeah. That's just that's what they've been doing. And then it's like how men fight and then they're fine afterwards. Like they're like, they get it out of the system and then they're fine.
Becky:They're like, I have my feelings and I'm done now.
Lydia:yeah. So it's like, why is it that way? And why, like, how can we get past that?
Lacey:I will say my hope with that is if they just Watch it. And yes, they get angry, but then they have some of those moments like where Ken is seeing men in places of power for the first time, having that moment and realizing that the opposite could be very well true for women. even if that seed gets planted, there's something there, I will say, and this is actually, it was going to be my like thing is I love media that can be fun and funny. joyful, but also deep. And so I think that the other part of it is that if it reaches a man who is enlightened by this, it is a little bit easier of a pill to swallow because it's wrapped in a pink bow and it's silly. And there's the mojo dojo casa da da da, you know, like just, like there are just ways to make it. A little bit more digestible. You're absolutely right. I hate that you're right, but you are right. But I just, I have hope because of those little things. we'll just say that. I, the other thing that I was like, go watch Ted Lasso if they need a more detailed answer. male forward example of non toxic masculinity. Maybe we can just point them to Ted Lasso.
Lydia:Yeah.
Lacey:They need a space. That's a good space. It's
Becky:It's maybe watch Ted Lasso first, and then,
Lacey:Yeah. So then they can get the be curious, not judgmental message and then go into Barbie.
Lydia:Got it all figured out.
Lacey:We have a curriculum for them.
Becky:so I'm going to have Xander watch Ted Lasso,
Lacey:Lasso
Becky:then the Barbie movie, then anatomy books. Poor
Lydia:There you go.
Becky:Xander. He's going to be like, guys, my mom, just seriously.
Lacey:I'll say. So like Joe and I are very much on the same page when it comes to all these things, right? So we do not have the differences that your kids will have when it comes to the two different views of things. So I think that is something that will be interesting for him, whereas, like I said, Isaac, Joe's telling him his feelings matter and all this stuff now. It's not just me, that kind of stuff. Last night, I was the one who was the mean one and yelling and Joe got to come in and be the nurturing one, so
Lydia:I love that. That's great.
Lacey:it's cool. Thank you for our conversation.