Welcome to Sharing the Middle, where we share the messy middles of life.

I'm Lacey, your friend in the middle and guide.

Today I'm Talking to Jori O'Neal and I particularly love this conversation and it is very obvious because we started talking and we were just going and I didn't even hit record yet.

So I hit record and we just jump right into our conversation.

I didn't want to interrupt the flow and we do jump right in.

But you are very caught up in the beginning.

We do have a very open and vulnerable conversation that includes a lot of talk of identity, racial identity, depression, pregnancy, miscarriage.

So if you need to take care of yourself and not listen to this episode, I totally understand and see you.

Check the show notes for all of Jori's social media and links because I think you're going to fall in love with her just as much as I did.

So let's jump right in.

Well, welcome, Jori.

Thank you so much for joining me.

Why don't you just take a quick minute to introduce yourself to our listeners?

Absolutely.

My name is Jori O'Neal.

I've been a 20 year educator.

I'm an author, a writer, and most recently bestselling author of the book More Than Enough, the Silent Struggle of a Woman's Identity.

I am the proud wife to one amazing husband and the overjoyed mom to four miraculous children.

I'm super excited to be here to share my story, to share the messy middle that I've been through.

And hopefully it'll give people courage and joy to endure the middle that they're going through as well.

Awesome.

Well, to be completely clear, we're recording this at the end of our talking because Joy and I just jumped right in and had a great time.

Literally.

It got to the point where I was like, maybe I just need to hit record and we'll keep going.

So it's going to be a little bit of a jarring of a start.

But let's jump into our conversation.

I went to St.

Yeah, I'm used to being in rooms, being in spaces where this is a new experience.

And now in addition to that, this is a new experience because I acknowledge and I'm aware that I'm a minority in America.

I get it.

Well, but you have to acknowledge it.

I don't have to.

That's one of those things that I'm trying to be better about is like, hey, I acknowledge this.

I do want you to Finish your statement, and then I'll explain where my thinking is.

I'm from Chicago.

I'm from the inner city of Chicago.

This is where I was born and raised.

In case you've never been to the inner city of Chicago, most of the people look like me.

Yeah.

And so I've never had this experience where even though I am a minority in America, I've been a minority, like, in the room, like, in the space.

And then I joined a church where at the time, I was among the minority.

And there's been this consistent almost shrinking of light.

I don't think I acknowledged it until maybe the last two or three years, where I'm like, I'm not showing up as jewelry.

Like, I am shape shifting.

Mm.

I'm trying not to offend, be cordial, not alarm people.

I'm.

I'm trying not to cause fear and invoke strong feelings.

I don't want to be seen as the loud black lady angry.

And I'm like, okay, so what has that taken from me?

Oh, yeah.

Going back to the nice white lady.

That is what it is to be a nice white lady.

I can empathize with that con.

I mean, obviously, I don't necessarily have to do it in terms of racial identity, but being a woman, it's part of that.

I need to make myself smaller and make sure everybody likes me and that everybody's okay and that everybody's comfort is more important than anything else that can relate to that.

So now there's two spaces that I'm coming from.

I'm also a middle child.

I love middle children on the middle, sharing the middle, because they're always like, oh, I feel this.

When I looked at what your platform was about, I was like, yes.

All to that.

Yes, yes.

Transitioning from an all black experience, an all black neighborhood, an all black family, an all black school, all black town, to Fresh Meadows, Queens, which is predominantly Asian and white, was like, okay.

The people who I tried to associate with, who I thought were like me, were not like me.

They were international students from, like, Jamaica and Trinidad.

And so it.

It.

It was this.

This time of filling others.

Yeah, I'm not like y'all either.

I look like y'all, but I'm like y'all.

You guys have a completely different lived experience.

I come from a low economic background.

These girls, they from Jamaica and Trinidad.

Had some money.

Well, because if they got themselves there, they're the funding for that.

Isn't as prevalent as people think it is.

No.

They came from nice places in Jamaica.

Very nice places.

And I say, okay, so how do I navigate in the multitude of spaces that I'm going from literally hour to hour?

I'm waking up in a dorm room with two white women.

I was like, I've never lived with white women before in my life because wherewith am.

So I wake up, and then I go to class, and then I leave and go to the different clubs that I joined, and they people look like me.

Then I go to work, and the people don't look like me.

Then I go to church, and the people don't look.

So it was, ew.

Constant.

There was a lot of identity shifting.

Yeah.

Yes.

A lot of identity shifting.

And even later on, after I got married, I was like, okay, what does it mean to be, like, a good wife?

What is.

What does that look like?

Am I supposed to allow him to walk over me?

Am I supposed to put my foot down?

Do I take the model that I was raising strong black women who don't need no man?

I'm like, but if I didn't need a man, why did I get married?

Do I then become, like, a doormat and then he just does whatever.

Then I turn the blind eye and pretend I don't see?

Like, where is the.

There has to be right.

Like a middle.

There has to be a middle.

And getting to that middle has been messy.

Well, yeah.

In my marriage, as a parent, being pregnant seven times in seven years.

Oh, you just made my stomach roll.

The thought of being pregnant seven times in seven years.

I'm an awful pregnant lady.

So, like, that's what I am.

Like, I feel awful all the time.

I'm exhausted.

And so I'm there for seven years, and I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, because am I taking from the experiences, the lived childhood experiences, the examples that I saw around me, what does it look like to raise a cow?

I was like, I don't know.

Because most of us were raised by my grandmother.

Yeah.

Like, our parents had us super young, their teens, early 20s.

And then they went and figured it out while grandma picked up the slack.

I'm like, I am in New York.

I'm not from here.

There's no slack.

Who's picking up my.

No.

There's no village.

There's no.

Well, I can't say that.

Okay.

The church that.

That I joined was.

And they still aren't.

I mean, rally around you.

It's great.

But it's not family, which I don't know if it's.

That might Be really good, because.

Right.

It's a lot of.

Where I'm coming from, family.

It is.

And.

And there's a lot of different parenting styles, a lot of different ideologies.

And so it's like, okay, well, which one of you should I follow?

Listen.

Wait, What?

Oh, okay.

We're pregnant again.

Okay.

Wait, what?

Oh, okay, this one didn't stick.

Okay.

What?

How do I.

Okay.

Oh, When I'm pregnant again.

Okay, wait.

Oh, this one stuck.

Oh, okay, cool.

Great.

Thank you.

I think.

Oh, my gosh.

I did it again.

Like, it was this revolving door, and people are like, oh, you know, postpartum depression.

I'm like, imagine I had depression before I got pregnant.

I've had it from, like, high school, experiencing sexual trauma, both in my family and in the church.

So now I'm pregnant for seven years, and I'm just.

I'm not myself.

But here's the crazy part.

I don't even know who myself is.

Yeah.

Because I haven't had the benefit, the privileged opportunity to be myself at home.

I was whoever I needed to be to survive.

I didn't unlearn the survival tactics, so I became whoever I needed to be in the spaces I showed up in to survive, to appease the people, to keep the peace.

Be light, be nice.

Right?

White ladies, White lady complex.

White lady.

Right.

But as a black woman, then it's very.

As you were talking, I'm like, oh, man.

She has this extra layer of people doubting her ability to do that.

Yes.

That's the expectation for me, but I'm set up for success for it.

You're set up for failure for it.

So I'm like, that's a whole nother level of just shit in your head.

Like, I just can't.

My brain.

Yeah.

I can't even understand what that would look like.

I just want to give you a couple of props before we move forward.

When you're pregnant, your entire body is constantly changing.

Like, the cycle of getting pregnant, then giving birth, it takes, like, two years for your body to get back to normal.

And so you are constantly, constantly in that change.

So the fact that you were anybody during that time.

Hell, yes.

Like, you were awesome, as far as I'm concerned.

I per.

I don't think we give women enough credit for, like, I'm growing an extra being and an extra organ right now.

What have you done today?

I need that on a T shirt.

The magnitude of that.

And then it's like, oh, and then you give birth, and now you have a whole other being.

To take care of physically if you have kids, there's so much there.

And you're also expected to be nice and pleasant and there for everybody and do all the things that you're supposed to.

Like.

It's not feasible.

I just.

I just need to validate and say kudos to you for surviving that for.

I know you said you were pregnant for seven years, but really, that's 10 or so years of your body constantly changing.

Thank you for that.

I think the more that I say it out loud, the more my brain and my body catch up to each other.

I'm like, eight.

We went through that.

And I'm like, whoa.

We went through that.

The time.

You can't fathom it, or else you would crumble.

I didn't want to think about it.

I literally, in the middle of that, we are in survival mode.

Then it made sense why I experienced all the things that I did growing up.

I was like, okay, you were prepping me.

Jesus.

You were prepping me for the times where I had to pretend that nothing was happening, when there was predators around, the times that I've.

I've been shot at, the car accidents that I've been in, that I'm just like, you should have died.

And now I'm like, all right, I am a black woman in America, pregnant seven times.

We have the highest mortality rate where it comes to infant.

Like, so I'm just like, you.

You made it.

You did, you made it.

And so the survival mentality just, I need to get to tomorrow.

I can't even.

There was no.

There was no vision.

There were no goals.

There were no, like, there were no plans.

There was just wake up, go to work, come back home, do nothing.

Like, I.

And I was sharing with someone.

I think during those seven years, had my husband and I not gone through disgusting, horrible, crappy two years prior that strengthen us, we wouldn't be able to make it until 13.

Those seven years, my husband, he became everything.

Like, he was the caretaker for everybody, legit everybody.

I would come home, take off my outside clothes because he's Caribbean.

So he's like, you can't wear your outside clothes inside the house.

And I'm like, okay, you got it.

This is weird because I'm from.

You just got one set of clothes.

So.

By the way, your husband and my husband are apparently very similar.

So no street clothes in the bed.

That's a rule that he has very specifically.

Right?

That's all bed bugs come.

I'm pretty sure that's not.

But I'm gonna Just, I'm a rock with you.

I would come home, disrobe, and that was it.

There was no cooking, no nothing.

He would say, hey, you have to do the kids hair.

And I'm like, okay.

So I would do my daughter's hair.

He says, hey, can I get a haircut?

He would have to prompt me to do stuff.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna say no.

I just don't have the capacity to think through and plan all this stuff.

Yep.

If you ask me to do something, I have no problem to do it.

Please don't anticipate.

It's just going happen.

I work as a teacher.

Oh.

So I just gave all of the energy.

Well, and all the planning and everything.

I picked this occupation so I can be closer to my kids, so I can spend more time with my kids.

But when I get home, the last thing I want to see is a kid.

Yeah.

Some things had to change.

I got a job closer to home.

Less stressful.

The commute came a lot less.

We started asking for help.

People prepping meals and washing and cleaning.

Sometimes we could pay them and sometimes we couldn't.

This is where we are.

Like, I need help.

And this is.

I'm not too proud to ask for help because I'm not the only one in this family.

Now there are two small children depending on me to make decent decisions.

Maybe not the best, but at least decent.

Wash your tail, go to work, come home, make something edible.

Just figure it out.

And that's.

That's how we function.

I want to say probably for about three.

Three of those seven years.

And then the floodgates opened, all those losses, right.

We five pregnancy, five years.

God was like, okay, you did okay with these two.

I'm giving you two more.

And I was like, it's okay.

I love.

You're so great.

What an awesome God.

I just, I'm okay.

So I told my husband, I said, I need you to get a vasectomy.

He's like, I'm doing research.

In the middle of his research.

We got pregnant with the third one.

Now, mind you, every time we get pregnant, we don't know.

And there was no issues, no problem.

Smooth pregnancy.

It happened maybe like 12 months after I had gave birth to the first one.

And now I gotta say, like almost Iris twins type situation.

My daughter's a year apart.

Legit, a year apart.

And then it happened again.

And I say, oh, I think we broke the code.

I think we figured this out.

I think we should stop.

I think we should.

We got a good thing going.

I Said, babe, you gonna get a vasectomy?

He's like, I'm still doing research.

I'm like, you've been researching for two years, sir.

I'm gonna tell you a secret.

Your research sucks.

You're a bad researcher.

You are not drawing any conclusions.

So then after that, they were like, oh, you can never have vaginal birth.

And I said, why?

Oh, because of the C section.

I said, lies you tell.

Yep.

But then they were like, but you didn't give your body enough time to heal.

I was like, listen, I'm not planning none of this.

I'm just enjoying my husband.

I was on birth control.

I didn't like it.

It did weird things to my body.

So we ain't doing that.

They're like, iud.

Ah, you ain't sticking nothing up me because from my homies over here, you do that and you still get pregnant anyway.

You ain't about to.

No, we ain't doing that.

They're like, oh, do you want to patch?

I don't want no hormones, bro.

No hormones.

Like, rhythm method.

I say, that's the problem.

We got good rhythm because we got great rhythms.

That's not working.

That I'm not wasting good stuff.

All right?

I'm not doing it.

So we just gonna let the chips fall where they may.

And so after I consulted with my doctor, the fourth C section, I said, listen, I need help.

After the fourth C section, I opted to get my tubes removed.

I said, I didn't want them tied, snipped, burned.

I said, all of that sounds carcinogenic.

I said, just take them out.

I still have ovaries.

I still have a uterus.

If I ever change my mind, I still got all my plumbing.

Yeah.

And five years later, my husband's still researching.

I will say my husband, when I got the positive pregnancy test.

Like, literally, I'm standing there with it, and we're both laughing because it's like, yeah, this would happen to us.

It's just one of those things.

He gets really quiet, and he's like, this can't happen again.

I'm like, yeah, you're gonna get a vasectomy.

Because obviously, I am too much of a wild card.

It won't happen to you.

It will happen to me, but it won't happen to you.

But that's the partnership.

Yes.

My youngest is now five, and my oldest is two.

Okay.

And I think one of the questions that you didn't ask, but it was on a.

We just dove in.

I like it.

I like the organicness of it.

I think probably the most tumultuous time for me was figuring out my identity.

I can't pinpoint when it began, the shape shifting and hiding.

I think probably with a couple therapy sessions, maybe we can pinpoint it, but I'm going to say maybe like early adolescence.

Can I pause just for a second?

You were used the word hiding, and I.

I think that has a little bit of a different connotation than like, shape shifting or making yourself smaller.

It sounds more intentional.

Oh, yeah.

So, like, that you are holding yourself back as a protective way not to just fit into a mold.

Am I right there?

Hiding.

That's a different word than I was expecting.

There was a combination of all of that depending on where I was in some spaces, even now.

And this is why it's difficult for me to go to certain places now, because I'm like, I have to hide.

And I'm a grown woman.

Yeah, I'm not hiding any more.

Anything like, I'm not hiding.

We gonna live really loudly, really boldly, really intentionally.

I've done that for so long.

Decades.

I'm not hiding anymore.

But in certain spaces, I will legit be a wallflower.

And I would sit there and I will just observe.

And then people will look and they're like, she's just sitting there, like, just watching everyone.

Yes.

This is me being in my element because I am a very observant.

I've had to be observant to protect myself.

And so in certain spaces, I say, okay, I'm gonna show up as the observer today.

But me being curious, if I see something, I'm going to go over and investigate.

I'm going to say something versus seeing something and then shutting up and staying there and all the internal thoughts.

Because then that's not me.

That's not me showing up as Jori.

That's me showing up as someone else.

And then there are other spaces where I'm like, okay, this is a safe space you're about to go into now.

Jory, you can be Jory.

All of you can show up.

Are you ready for that?

I'm like, yeah.

Oh, yeah, let's do it.

It's gonna be great.

And then those spaces, I'm like, I wanna relish here forever.

Like, I just.

I don't wanna leave.

Yeah, the conversation had to be with my husband.

Like, hey, when I'm quick to leave an area or a space, it's because I don't feel safe in that space.

There's something about that space that doesn't allow the full me to come authentically as I.

And so now that we have this understanding, if I say, hey, I'm ready to go, and I have my bag on, and, like, everything's like.

He's like, okay, she doesn't feel safe.

All right, guys, we're gonna go now.

And so there's no to do that.

Like, if.

I'll say, hey, babe, I feel good about this space we're going to.

Are you okay with that?

Because he doesn't like too much social interaction.

He needs moments of re.

Energizing that requires isolation.

He just needs him time.

I'm like, okay, I want to honor that.

We're looking out for each other.

Okay.

We go this space, and I'm feeling like, just so I need you to put on your hat.

Like, okay, I'm gonna have to engage with humans a lot longer than I desire to.

I'm like, you can bring your video game, right?

Bring.

Bring your console.

I'm sure somebody else gonna want to talk console or play console.

And so that way you can be isolated, small group situation in the larger thing and that.

But that's his protection, right?

Like, that's his way of protecting himself.

And so we've gone to therapy together.

We've gone to therapy separately.

We're still learning, right?

Because as we grow, evolve as humans, we're still learning each other.

And I'm like, how are you with crowds still?

What's your threshold?

And he's like, how do you feel?

I was like, I feel a lot of anxious.

Do we have to go?

You know, we don't.

It's a thousand.

We pick the kids in the car, and they will look at each other, and I'm like, I don't feel safe.

And he'll be like, okay, I didn't want to talk to people anyway.

Let's get out the car.

The kids are like, what's happening?

We're like, we've changed our mind.

Yeah.

We're just.

We're going to change our minds.

And we want you to be resilient.

We don't want to scar you.

We want to mess you up.

But at the same time, we don't want to put ourselves in positions where we.

Right.

Like, he's upset and frustrated.

I'm upset and frustrated.

And guess who all of these frustrations are going to be taken out of?

Absolutely.

When we get home, do you like when mommy and daddy are yelling or when we happy and we laughing and we smiling and we playing?

They're like, the ladder.

We like the ladder.

The ladder is great.

Like, great.

So let's just stay home.

Let's figure out, you guys want to order pizza, watch a movie, play some games?

They're like, oh, yeah, all right.

Where are we going anyway?

We don't even know we need to go there.

Also, what a beautiful gift that you're giving them of role modeling.

Listening to yourself and what you need and enacting that.

I mean, like, I.

That was.

That's not a thing that I've seen in life a whole lot, you know, like, well, no, we have to go here and we have to do this, and we should do this all done with the greatest intentions and.

And that kind of stuff.

But I.

I'm kind of a mix between you and your husband.

I need a lot of alone time.

I just do.

But I'm an extrovert, so people don't think that I need.

It's.

People can't predict it, and I don't need you to.

I'll let you know.

But because of that, the people around me didn't quite get it when I'm like, yeah, I gotta go be myself by myself.

And it's like, but you're all going.

And you're.

It's like, no, no, no.

These are different things.

I'm allowed to go be in my room by myself because that's what I need right now.

And so teaching your children from a young age of, like, no, your needs are allowed to be met.

You're Recognize those needs.

Don't push them down.

Recognize them and figure out with the people around you what that looks like.

So you communicated with your husband about it, and then you found a way to still make your kids feel valued and special.

I took a lot from that story.

Well, I.

Something we don't see.

It doesn't happen all the time.

I don't want, like, people dming me like, oh, I need parenting advice.

Listen, this is legit.

Flying the plane and building it at the same time.

Each of our children is absolutely different, and some of them have special needs.

Other ones don't have super exhibiting special needs.

I think everyone's special in their own way, in their own right.

I have a kid on the spectrum.

I have a kid who has adhd.

I have a kid who has dyslexia.

Certain activities and things, board games, whatever.

If there's reading involved.

She's not fully engaged.

I have one son.

He's like, I can't sit still longer than 20 minutes, so please don't let me or ask me to, because it's not gonna work.

We Know, like, if we take him to the movies, okay, who's going to take him to the bathroom?

Because he's probably going to have to go, like, every 20 minutes.

Are you okay with missing most of this movie?

You want to miss the first half of the second half?

Like, how we doing this?

And so we.

We were so grateful when streaming started happening and they were just streaming movies from the house because we were like, just go to the bathroom yourself.

You leave.

We're going to stay and watch.

But again, you are not making them fit into an individual mold.

You are allowing them to be themselves.

I get a little wary about seeing anybody as a parenting expert because every relationship, every child, everything is so different.

So I just want to preface that, but there are little things that you said that I'm like, oh, that's what I'm trying to do.

I'm trying to let my kid be who they are and communicate that with me.

Especially.

Chronic illness has taught me that there is not one size fits all when it comes to making life accessible.

It doesn't.

There is no too lazy or too little or too much.

It is what you need and what makes your life better.

And there is no arbitrary right way of doing things.

I love that you said, well, we've got all these different situations going on.

Awesome.

The different situations, you're trying to meet everybody where they're at so they can succeed the best they can.

And going back to the nice white ladiness that I was saying earlier, that's not a thing in white culture.

A lot of times it's a single story, a single narrative of, well, this is how you should be.

This is how you should do things.

One of the things that I'm learning so much is that those shoulds are not helping anyone.

So why are we ascribing to them?

I think.

But this is still something that I'm.

I'm unlearning part of this unlearning.

And I thought, okay, well, I went into the self development space and I was just like, okay, well, what does it mean?

What.

What lies am I telling myself?

What limits am I putting on myself?

Right?

All the words, all the Tony Robbins fairy phrases and whatnot.

And what I'm learning is that, like, a lot of self development is not catered toward black trauma.

Well, no, because it's a bunch of mostly white dudes, but there's some white ladies thrown in there, right?

Men's and ladies.

And so there's a.

There's a.

Now there's another layer of not just, okay, well, do you have scarcity mindset?

Okay, but why do I have scarcity mindset?

Is it because I lived in lack?

Because I've been taught legitimately that lack is good, lack is safe, lack is predictable.

Ooh.

Lack is where we live.

So lack is comfortable.

And so human body, the human mind, we're always going to go back to our comfort zone.

So you grew up in lack.

Okay, not only did you grow up in lack, but you were trained to, like, embrace lack, to that.

That lack is comfortable, that scarcity is comfortable.

It is a warm, weighted blanket that is thrown over me and makes me feel safe.

The idea that that is something that I have to fight through.

In addition, now take on this new identity.

Remember we talked about I.

I shapeshift and all the identities, and so now I'm like, okay, well, is this me shapeshifting?

Like, where is reality?

Where is limitless beliefs and mindset?

Where's the line?

Where's the landing?

Pale?

Where are we starting from?

What's point zero of this?

Are we trying to raise expectations, or are we trying to raise just our threshold?

Like, hey, she's not okay, because you weren't created for scarcity.

You may have been in scarcity, you may have been raised in scarcity, but scarcity is not the way that God created you to be.

I have to go down before I can go up.

I have to do a lot of, what's this?

What's that?

Why?

Why?

Why?

Is it true?

Is it true?

Is this true?

And now, not only is it true, but is it true?

For me, that's where I've had a lot of just like, all right, these things happen to you.

Where's their preparation?

On the back end before this occurred?

And if not, then what is this setting you up for in the future?

And so I'm.

Now I'm.

I'm.

I'm into, like, connections.

Like, I'm.

Before, it was because I was in survivor mode.

Everything was segmented.

Everything was compartmentalized.

Right?

My therapist, she was like, you have ocd.

I'm like, yes.

If you grew up where I'm from, you would have it, too.

I'm aware.

She's like, but it shows up differently.

I'm, like, very aware of this.

I'm glad you gave me language to describe how I literally have had to live for the first 30 years of my life.

Thank you so much.

Kudos.

I said, now what are we doing?

She's like, oh, well, I don't know, because this is different.

You're not familiar with Black trauma.

Black trauma is a little different.

It is normalized.

And then when you go and visit your home people, I went back home and was re.

Triggered from the trauma of everybody living in scarcity.

And they think, this is okay.

This is good.

This is fun.

This is fine.

We've lived this for generations.

Yeah.

And so then there's this other idea of, well, we have to prove.

We have to.

And when people start saying should and have to, I'm like, well, I have.

A mug that I made for myself that says stop shoulding all over yourself.

It's my number one word of nope, I'm not allowed to say should, shoulds, or bad.

I'm like, all right.

And I keep finding myself in these institutions and in these spaces where, oh, you should.

But should I though everything?

Like, where you should.

Where you have to, like, the mom was like, no, I don't know what this is, but I don't like it already.

I don't even.

You haven't even explained anything.

But the fact that you led with those words, I don't even like.

And so what it's done is caused me to be more in touch with my.

To be more intentional about how I show up, where I show up, and who I'm showing up with.

Because not all people are created equal.

So best friends that I've had 30 years shouldn't necessarily be the same best friends that I have now because I'm not that same human.

Yeah.

The more I talk to people, the more I'm like, our interests are not aligned.

Like, we don't want the same things.

I want the world to be a better place, not just my family.

Yeah.

I don't want people to think highly of me.

And, oh, I'm amazing.

And I have all this money and we go on all these vacations and we purchase all this nice stuff.

You can't take that with you when you die.

No one's going to be like, oh, you know the couch.

Oh, my gosh, wow.

Like, no one's.

No one's going to go.

If someone is like, you know what?

She had a really nice couch.

I actually would really enjoy that.

But it's because they sat on my couch and they enjoyed it and they were there and they were able to be comfortable.

So even as you were saying that, I'm like, well, I would like that.

But then the more I thought about it, like, oh, that's because of all the other stuff attached to it, not the actual owning of the couch that.

Will never be in anyone's obituary.

So now I'm kind of requesting it be in mine, because I would love to be.

Like, Lacy's couch is a place we always came and sat.

I do want to get back to your original point, because I do genuinely agree with you of those values, of, it's not about what I have, but it's about the life that I've lived and the contributions I've made to the world and that kind of stuff.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's very hard when you get in a conversation with somebody that you've known your whole life, and they're like, oh, you genuinely mean the stuff.

Okay.

I have friends that I've been friends with 30, 33, 35 years.

Yeah.

And I know I'm only 25, so how in the world.

But those friendships, they're.

They're still there because they're intentional.

As I've taken some time over the last year to really evaluate, like, does this friendship bring me joy?

Does this give me energy?

How do I feel after I've left this person's presence?

Do I feel like I have more energy?

Do I feel more alive?

Do I feel drained?

Do I feel like I had to show up as someone else?

Do I feel like there was balance?

Was this reciprocal in terms of our conversation, or was it you just bragging about all the things, looking and sitting down and saying, okay, these are the friendships that bring me joy.

None of them are in the state that I live.

What are we going to do this year to go get some joy?

I've literally been on a tour to go get joy.

I love that.

I've traveled from state to state, sometimes with my kids, sometimes without my kids, just to hug my friends and say, this brings me joy.

And I would just go to serve, like, hey, I needed a hug.

That's my love, language, quality time, and affection.

I would go, hey, I need FaceTime.

I need a hug.

And then I want to hear your heart.

What's going on with you?

How are you feeling?

When I die, I want people to be like, yo, she love hard.

Like, she.

She.

She.

You talk about you love, not she love hard.

Like she.

She said she loved you.

She meant that joint, and she showed.

You, and you felt it.

Nothing.

Nothing held back.

Yeah, I.

So we are almost to the end of our time.

I have really loved our conversation.

It is.

It's given me life.

I'm in a much better place than I was when we first started talking.

I love your intentionality and that you are paying attention to yourself.

I don't think people do that very often, and I think that is something for us all to learn from you.

I just think it's really awesome.

Well, thank you for having me.

This was fun, unconventional in all the right ways, and I felt safe.

That is very important to me.